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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#181

Post by ElFitz »

def8cefe wrote: post #91
rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

Taxis in Paris have a reputation (warranted or not) of refusing customers based on destination.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#183

Post by avianlyric »

WanderPanda wrote: post #149
alistairSH wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that in the builder-app, the builder has now been transformed into an employee, same as an Uber driver. To me, "setting prices" is more than just refusing/accepting prices set by an algorithm/app, but the ability to negotiate those independently. In the cake example, a baker absolutely could attempt to negotiate for chocolate. They might not "win" the negotiation, but they have the option. Edit - in the tax…

- I'm convinced corporations are using it to reduce wages and benefits and effectively foist the cost of those lower wages/benefits on society as a whole. The customer demand (customer being the drivers) tells a completely different story of people being more productive than legacy taxi systems by taking responsibility themselves. I think a lean "gig economy" without the full load of bureaucracy is largely positive a…

I would be more inclined to agree with you if there was clear evidence that people really understood all the “responsibility” they’re taking on when picking up gig-economy work.

Responsibilities like the value depreciation of their vehicle, or paying for sick leave and time off.

Full time employment provides strong protection against unexpected illness. The gig-economy doesn’t.

Companies like Uber seem to prey on large pools of semi-innumerate drivers who either don’t realise they’re operating a loss and too desperate to care.

The result is your productivity gains, which only exist because some of the costs simply aren’t accounted for and ignored. These aren’t real productivity gains, that’s just socialising costs and clever accounting to justify it.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#184

Post by smallgovt »

ars wrote: post #8
xenospn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that the only way the Uber/Lyft business model is even remotely viable (without continuous VC subsidy) is classifying drivers as contractors, meaning they don't have to pay them minimum wage or benefits, which lets them undercut taxis.

> as contractors, meaning they don't have to pay them minimum wage or benefits, which lets them undercut taxis. That's not really true though. Their pay is higher to make up the difference. No, the main thing is that Uber doesn't have to guarantee them fulltime work, or at least any kind of minimum amount of work. i.e. Uber can say "No work today, too bad".

Uh, no, Uber doesn't have to guarantee full-time work regardless of employee or contractor classification -- hence the term "part-time employment".

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#185

Post by ijidak »

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Is employee and 1099 the same?

Because almost every 1099 contractor is restricted in the ways listed.

For example, I was doing work for a Digital Marketing company as a software developer.

I could not:

1. Take their clients 2. I had to accept their rate or just decide to not work with them 3. I accepted their terms and conditions for jobs allocated to me from them

#2 and #3 seem to be more of an issue of negotiating power, rather than reflecting whether or not I am self employed.

And #1 seems to be up to interpretation of "what is a client?"

If I drive for Uber, Lyft, and whoever else wants my services, am I not building my clientele?

Couldn't I also moonlight by offering direct driving services to other clients I source on my own?

In the ride-sharing case, my clients just happen to be large publicly-traded transportation networks that I sell my services to.

In my case with that digital marketing company, I was not restricted from developing for other companies simultaneously.

This is where some laws confuse me. They seem open to the interpretation of the day. But perhaps that's the best that lawmakers can do...

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#186

Post by bluntfang »

sigstoat wrote: post #147
reaperducer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Uber has to class them as employees, it should also be able to deny them from working on other platforms. Why? In America, there are tens of millions of people who work more than one job. They're still employees; just employees of more than one company. Fred's Plastic Fork Factory can't tell me I can't moonlight at Alice's Diesel Cafe and Firing Range.

> In America, there are tens of millions of people who work more than one job. not simultaneously, or even interleaved in 30 minute increments.

As someone who has the ability to work 2 tech jobs if I wanted to, I could context switch every minute if I wanted to due to the technology allowing me to do so. Why should other people be unable to do this if the tech is there to support it?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#187

Post by def8cefe »

ElFitz wrote: post #181
def8cefe wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. 'Radio' calls and calls they've privately arranged with customers as well. >Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. That would be local by-law in most cases. >Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. You can't intentionally ripoff customers but the fastest route and the cheapest are often different. You can take whatever…

Taxis in Paris have a reputation (warranted or not) of refusing customers based on destination.

It's pretty common everywhere. Imagine waiting (potentially hours) queued in a taxi stand for a fare, only to get somebody with a $5 trip who's rude and smells like they haven't showered in a decade.

None of the people who make the taxi regulations (or the passengers who invent their own in the back seat) would accept that person if it was their own car, but taxi drivers are seen as contemptible and unworthy of basic human decency by a staggering portion of the population. I am a white driver so I get treated much better than most, but it's still mind blowing to see. I understand why taxi drivers start to give 0 f's after a while.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#188

Post by andrewla »

alistairSH wrote: post #102
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I think the strongest argument against this point of view is that the drivers can opt to work for multiple car services to get a handle on their price structures. It's certainly possible for a traditional employer to allow that arrangement, but you have to admit it is an uncommon thing.

It's much more analogous to a contractor working for a general contractor -- if I'm a plumber I can take gigs from multiple general contractors, and my ability to negotiate with the customer directly is very limited; instead I'm usually left negotiating with the general contractor, often just with a take it or leave it price. The general contractor is not the employer in this case.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#189

Post by avianlyric »

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #123
oarsinsync wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

But you cannot simultaneously work for both.

I don’t see a difference between shift work at multiple super markets and multiple ride for different ride hailing apps.

Only difference is the length of the shift, and the amount of notice before hand.

Many supermarkets only provide shift schedules hours before they start. Uber just provides their shift schedules seconds before they start.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#190

Post by bluntfang »

ampdepolymerase wrote: post #123
oarsinsync wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

But you cannot simultaneously work for both.

Just curious, when are you "working" for uber or lyft? I'm honestly not sure how it works. Do you collect an hourly wage when you are waiting? Or do you only collect money when you actively driving a passenger?
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