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How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

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Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickeni…

>And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please c…

> From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please correct me if I am wrong.

Iran is a big country with very big divisions. Younger people and middle class are educated and relatively secular but the older generations and specially rural areas can be very backwards.

> In my view, destabilizing the regime provides some path to democracy, while keeping it in place provides no path to democracy.

It could potentially lead to democracy. But it could lead to far far worse outcomes as well. In Iran's case, the worse outcomes are more likely because:

1. Geographically, it's literally in-between Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and therefore ISIS, Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

2. Thanks to Islamic Republic, it has big enemies, including but not limited to USA, Saudi Arabia and Israel.

3. It has vast natural resources (Oil, Gas) and attracts foreign interests.

4. Revolutions are _rarely_ constructive. Read George Orwell's Animal Farm. When I first I read, I though, how could this man write the book of Islamic Republic so many decades earlier? But it turns out almost all revolutions have a similar trajectory: They go to shit.

> As I said before, I don't believe there is any "responsible" way to perform regime change.

> As an Iranian yourself, do you really think it was ever possible that the hardliners would voluntarily step down themselves? I agree that JCPOA should have been upheld, but I frankly don't know enough to say if it would have set Iran on a path to democracy.

Of course no hardliner is ever going to step down. However, by allowing reformers and moderate forces to make progress, we give them more power.

It won't be quick at all. Takes decades and generations. But to me it seems the only real and viable path.

> I have not yet made enough money to pay federal taxes, so my hands are clean for at least the next few months. I do understand your point though.

Don't beat yourself to it. Even if you were a taxpayer I wouldn't ever think your hands are not clean. I'm an American taxpayer myself. I live in the states. I don't think anyone who paid tax to the U.S. has blood on their hands or whatever.

All I'm saying is, when talking about war, or supporting it, let's make sure we have a really good understanding of the subject matter. Otherwise we could be supporting an unjust war.

Sorry again about the personal attack. Harsh times.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#182
post #7

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it…

> Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go?

Why would anyone think that?

It's an absurd question frankly. You don't need to feel that way to be an ally of the US. Is there a single US ally that thinks that at this point? The US is deeply flawed country, even more than most.

The difference is that Iranians have every reason to hate the US.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People of Iraq were suffering exactly how under Saddam? The answer to that question has its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein...

BTW, without even discussing a credibility of this page, why it's never a problem when human rights violations happen in a countries that are allies of USA. The country can be a very strict dictatorship (Singapore) or violate human rights even more aggressively than Saddam Hussein ever did (UAE) - but it's never an issue. As long as the country economics decisions are dictated by USA (e.g. investing almost all countr…

“BTW, without even discussing the evidence you gave to the question on topic, I would like to respond with whataboutism because I don’t like the answer.”

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickeni…

>And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? From what the media sources I follow has told me about the Iranian people, they are all fairly educated and the country has an established scholarly system that enables most citizens to achieve greater education. As I saw further down in the thread that you are actually an Iranian yourself, please c…

> I have not yet made enough money to pay federal taxes, so my hands are clean for at least the next few months.

Unless you have existed outside of the US the entire time, you have paid federal taxes. Income tax is just one small portion of the way the federal government collects money. Gas taxes, FAA fees in your airline tickets, FICA taxes on your paycheck, FUSF tax on your cell phone, etc.

Disabuse yourself and anyone you know of the notion that being in a low tax bracket means you’re not financially contributing to the federal government. Also disabuse yourself of the notion that paying involuntary taxes somehow makes you responsible for how those dollars were used.

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last war USA "won" was WWII. For all that we spend on it, and for as many innocents as it destroys, our military cannot accomplish objectives that benefit the national interest. Which isn't surprising, because it has been optimized to waste resources, not to win.

It's also arguable that most of the winning in WWII had a lot to do with the Russians, but aren't credited with it in the american narrative. Particularly interesting was Japan's delayed response and surrender after the nukes, which goes to show these were not why they actually surrendered but helped to paint a post war narrative that allowed them to prosper more after losing.

Who did japan surrender to?

Re: How the CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy in Four Days in 1953 (2019)

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BTW, without even discussing a credibility of this page, why it's never a problem when human rights violations happen in a countries that are allies of USA. The country can be a very strict dictatorship (Singapore) or violate human rights even more aggressively than Saddam Hussein ever did (UAE) - but it's never an issue. As long as the country economics decisions are dictated by USA (e.g. investing almost all countr…

“BTW, without even discussing the evidence you gave to the question on topic, I would like to respond with whataboutism because I don’t like the answer.”

Regarding original question: it (and parent comments) assume that most of the population somehow "suffer" from the lack of "human rights" or "freedom of speech".

I assure you it's not true. Democracy, human rights, freedom of speech are things that are very vaguely defined. It means that you can blame anyone arbitrarily for being insufficiently "democratic". This is what USA actually uses as a pretext to declare a war for resources. You can call any country "undemocratic" for some definition of "democracy".

"Democracy", "freedom of speech", and other abstract concepts, doesn't affect the daily lives of 99.9% of population. Most people do not care: they wake up, have a breakfast, go to work, come home, have a dinner, go to bed. They do not really care what is exact way the president is elected (or not elected). They do not care about so-called "freedom of speech" because they aren't journalists or writers.

On the other hand, when somebody drops bombs and rockets on you and your family, when infrastructure (schools, power lines, roads and other things) in your country are destroyed for tens of years, when there's anarchy and chaos around that causes huge rise of crimes, it makes a great difference to the everyday lives of the people. And that is what US/NATO really brought to people of Iraq, Libya and other countries.

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