When will the Netherlands disappear? • Hacker News Board

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#181

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:47 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #180

rocqua wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd need to be able to deal with peak-flow to some extent.

Either he's already worked that in (20K cubic meters per second) or we can correct for it, the normal 'debiet' is about 600 cubic meters per second, the annual average is 2200, the peaks observed are about 12K.

Another big river to count with is the Waal, which does about 3/4 of that and then there are the Lek, the Maas and the Schelde, all of which are yet another doubling. So there would be a substantial amount of energy involved here.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#182

Post by rocqua » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #181

jacquesm wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either he's already worked that in (20K cubic meters per second) or we can correct for it, the normal 'debiet' is about 600 cubic meters per second, the annual average is 2200, the peaks observed are about 12K.

Another big river to count with is the Waal, which does about 3/4 of that and then there are the Lek, the Maas and the Schelde, all of which are yet another doubling. So there would be a substantial amount of energy involved here.

I'd say the pump capacity and maintenance would be a bigger hurdle than the energy involved.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#183

Post by mannykannot » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

adventskalender wrote: post #161

mannykannot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want data, but the only datum you offer in support of your assertion that you are being unreasonably manipulated is the effect of a single storm in the 14th. century. Meanwhile, other people have been posting much more pertinent comments on, for example, the non-uniformity of global-warming-induced sea-level rise.

No the manipulation is the story about the abandoned settlement. I don't think you understood my point at all. The only assertion I made is that land being lost to the sea is not a new or outlandish thing. For that 14th century is sufficient - and even better in context of global warming, as there was no such thing in the 14th century. Also I am not a journalist publishing an article. So I mentioned the first example…

> ...and even better in context of global warming, as there was no such thing in the 14th century.

On the contrary, that means it has little relevance to the resurgent concerns of the 21st. century. Your position is a form of denial that goes "we don't have to worry about global-warming induced X, because X occurred before there was global warming", which is, of course, bogus if global warming is significantly changing the scale of X.

I get the impression that your feeling of being manipulated is precisely because you do not get this point. Furthermore, your complaint that the author did not write the article you wanted to read is of no interest and is not going to change anything.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#184

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

rocqua wrote: post #182

jacquesm wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another big river to count with is the Waal, which does about 3/4 of that and then there are the Lek, the Maas and the Schelde, all of which are yet another doubling. So there would be a substantial amount of energy involved here.

I'd say the pump capacity and maintenance would be a bigger hurdle than the energy involved.

The largest pumps we have right now do about 250 cubic meters per second.

https://deafsluitdijk.nl/projecten/vergroten-waterafvoer/hoe...

I'd say that that is manageable.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#185

Post by growlist » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

charliesharding wrote: post #88

growlist wrote: post #70

NL earns fortunes pumping hydrocarbons, thereby contributing to climate change, thereby forcing itself to spend fortunes defending against climate change. For some reason I'm reminded of Alanis Morissette.

The ironic song about how she doesn't understand the meaning of irony?

Some argue her mistaken take on what's ironic is intentional, and the true irony of the song.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#186

Post by tda » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #179

tda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just did a little bit of a napkin calculation, how much energy would it cost to pump the entire flow of the Rhine 2m higher? 2m head difference, 20_000m3/s flow Due to head difference: 1000kg/m3 * 20_000m3/s * 9.8kgm/s2 * 2m = 392MW Accelerating to 5m/s: 0.5 * 1000kg/m3 * 20_000m3/s * (5m/s)^2 = 250MW That is at 100% efficiency. But knowing a modern container vessel has 60MW installed power, and a large coal powerpla…

The Rhine is 2,000 cubic meters per second, not 20,000.

From memory I believe the "Ruimte voor de rivieren" project was designed for peak discharges of around 15k m3/s, but could very well be wrong there. Normal discharge is much much lower. Just wanted to see if the extreme scenario is remotely feasible (which I would say it is, though it's pretty far out).

But if there is enough buffer capacity then of course you only have to dimension the pumps for longer term average high discharge, and not peak discharge.

Edit: Just found this: https://edepot.wur.nl/84989

1/1250 year Rhine discharge at Lobith is found to be and as higher discharges will cause major flooding upstream instead of reaching Lobith directly this should be about the max to expect. Such a peak discharge would be part of a high water period with discharges up to 15 consecutive days of >10.000m3/s, so you would need a pretty big buffer.