Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

cbc.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 300 posts

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#181

Post by hnburnsy »

This feels like the episode of the The Good Place where they figure out the point system to get to the good place doesn't work because today's world is complicated...

>Michael uses the example of someone buying roses. A man hundreds of years ago got a lot of Good Place points because he grew and picked his own roses to give to his grandmother. However, when another man got roses for his grandmother, he lost points. It’s because he ordered them through a cell phone that was made in a sweatshop, the flowers were grown with toxic pesticides, delivered from thousands of miles away creating a large carbon footprint and the money went to a greedy CEO that sexually harassed women.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#182

Post by bluGill »

yters wrote: post #159
solidasparagus wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.

How does 'continue buying unethically sourced cobalt' improve the state of things? Ideally, it is a dual solution of don't buy the unethical kind, and set up an alternate ethical supply chain to the same region so workers can switch to a better work place. But, if the latter is not possible, one can at least help decrease the market for unethical cobalt by ceasing purchase. Plus, it is not a matter of seeming morally…

In what situation? In the case of Cobalt it probably doesn't.

In the case of rubber the big companies do provide better jobs for the families they employ than anything else, ensure the family gets modern medical care (as opposed to "witch doctor" care anyone not working for them gets), and the children do go to school and so have the ability to get a better job latter. The companies looks the other way in harvest season then families are taking their kids with them to work, so long as the kids are in school. Child labor for sure, but you can honestly argue that the children are better off despite that.

You can decide if you accept that as better or not, but it is a reasonable argument that child labor isn't always the worst possible.

Sadly I don't think in the case of cobalt the above applies.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#183

Post by solidasparagus »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #178
solidasparagus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

> I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is ...said the people opposing abolitionism. Reality: to achieve moral progress, sometimes you need to eat an economic recession. Suck it up, buttercup.

Good example. The person who actually ended slavery in the US, Abraham Lincoln, didn't support abolition until the military advantages of emancipation became obvious enough that he could sell it to the people. For a long time he supported some slavery improvements, but specifically did not support abolition - which very much helped his political career and put him in position to emancipate.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#184

Post by leshow »

celticmusic wrote: post #138
solidasparagus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree, but if we want to actually help, we need to work with the world the way it is, not the way we wish it was. Moral grandstanding helps us feel good more than it helps the people who are actually suffering. There will always be uncertainty about the supply chain. That's the nature of the mineral trade AFAIK.

taking the stance that the exploitation of children is unacceptable and punishing anyone who does work with those who exploit children is not moral grandstanding.

It's also an incredibly easy position to take when all you have to do is say it's wrong. I think that's what they are getting at.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#185

Post by throwaway_tech »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #114
throwaway_tech wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if they shut this down it will just pop up again with another company... You can't just pop up a new mine like you could a textile factory.

I’m not endorsing the original comment, but the mines that employ child labor aren’t generally big mechanized operations. They’re what are called “artisanal mines”: holes in the ground where people chip out rocks with hand tools. So you kinda can just pop one up.

Then perhaps the big tech and battery makers are even more culpable for this child exploitation...if its as easy as just digging a hole and chipping out rocks, they could be a little more selective in their suppliers.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#186

Post by simmanian »

solidasparagus wrote: post #57
celticmusic wrote: post #31

Then the law needs to change. It's unconscionable for this to be happening. You make the buyers of that cobalt start caring, you'll make the producers of that cobalt start caring.

I don't think this makes much sense. The mineral supply chain in that part of the world is ridiculously hard to track. Even when you stop buying directly from the DRC, the minerals flow over the borders (see how Rwandan coltan exports jumped when people stopped buying DRC 'conflict' coltan). That part of the DRC is basically beyond the reach of the Congolese government and the bordering countries have been waging pro…

Just out of curiosity, do you know how regular people could know more about supply chains that are not hard to track?

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#187

Post by frockington1 »

sjg007 wrote: post #83
swebs wrote: post #5

>Perhaps the only tragedy greater than the criminal destruction of the environment and the lives of the people of the Congo by these companies is the fact that it would be a rounding error on their income statements to fix the problem. Eh, I don't think giving more money to the third world mining companies is going to guarantee they're going to stop using child labor. The simplest and least risky decision for the tec…

Nobody should be buying diamonds at this day in age...

Why not? They look pretty, come in many shapes and sizes, and have industrial applications.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#188

Post by frockington1 »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #171
papreclip wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really seem to be sharpening the axe for our big tech companies these days. Personally I find it disturbing. These companies are a river of prosperity for our people, especially software developers

Um... Only software developers.

And human resources departments, and finance departments, and investors, and people with 401ks, and people who depend on taxes, and anyone who sells goods etc... They produce a lot of value to the US economy

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#189

Post by FussyZeus »

solidasparagus wrote: post #137
FussyZeus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. So because we can't fix their situation for them, we're allowed to actively make it worse? This is such a nonsense point of view. Exploitative industry is not like regular industry. This is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, this is enriching one or two psychopathic monsters at the expense of the…

It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. Until you can do that, offering 'stop buying' as a solution is a waste of time.

> It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't.

"Realistic" is determined entirely by the values of the overarching system. The fate of the people at the long tail of the supply lines isn't valued. That's the single, solitary reason that this shit is still happening. Change that, and the system will adapt. The mines will get better, or they will be replaced with other mines that do it properly.

Stop settling for what your corporate overlords tell you is doable. We can do anything as a species if we choose to, good or bad. Our history shows it. Industry has every reason to tell you it's impossible because they don't want to spend the money to insure supply lines are ethically handled.

If we can mine coal in the United States without children and with relative safety, they can mine Cobalt in the same damn way. Cobalt doesn't by virtue of being cobalt need to be pried from the Earth by children.

Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt

#190

Post by FussyZeus »

bryan_w wrote: post #162
celticmusic wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seriously. How the fuck are people's moral compass so off? I understand reality is reality, but there are some things that should not be, and for slightly cheaper electronics of all things? fuck that.

I mean, you typed that message using something that probably has cobalt inside of it or used cobalt in it's manufacturing. So... why is your moral compass so off?

https://i.imgur.com/4KZe4UO.png
Post reply on HN