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Help me ask why you didn't just

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Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#181

Post by AmericanChopper »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a personal offence. Rather than dressing it up in a way that can often just come across as condescending, and without always even providing the benefit that critical feedback would have to begin with.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#182

Post by r-w »

Honestly, @carlmr’s answer is the shortest & sweetest of them all. The most important thing is to avoid associating your idea with yourself and their implementation with themselves. As soon as that happens, you’re opening yourself up to a territorial interaction.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#183

Post by r-w »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Totally agreed. I think one important aspect of your suggestion is that it avoids creating a territorial interaction: no association is made between the speakers and their respective ideas. Each is free to consider one idea or the other, without feeling like they have to identify with & defend “their idea”.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#184

Post by OJFord »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

IMHO the critique isn't the issue - that's after all the point of the process - it's the hidden reasoning and sounding like an examiner or quizmaster.

Are you testing whether I know if SSH could be good, or are you honestly asking if I made a decision not to for a reason I can help you understand?

Assuming we're on the same side (which isn't 'let's quiz each other to teach other') I'd rather receive something like:

> As I understand it flibbitd could be used here with similar properties as widgetd, but faster foo since it drops legacy bar support (that we don't use). Normally we avoid it as it's less common, but since we're bundling whichever one here I think we can safely use it - unless there's another reason not to that I've missed?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#185

Post by cauliflower99 »

"Would we be able to use a simpler method - could sshd work?"

- "We", rather than "you", puts the question / phrase into a team context - ie. you are there with the other person to help, not to point fingers.

- Asking the question at the end indicates that you are unsure whether you are correct or not, while leaving yourself open to criticism, thereby displaying humility.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#186

Post by Shish2k »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #181
carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…

Is "Why don't you just use sshd?" actually objectively more useful than "Would there be any tradeoffs using sshd here?"

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#187

Post by r-w »

undoware wrote: post #80

in philosophy we say: "Standardly, XYZ, but if I understand you, you're saying ABC, are you not? What motivates this difference?" Key points: -identify that you are making an explicit formal comparison to a usual solution -convey a charitable attempt at understanding ("the Principle of Charity"), and how far it took you - attempt to comprehend the problem being solved

But is the contrast between what is “standard” and what is actually used? Or is it between what’s been informed by practice and what’s being suggested in theory?

Perhaps presenting the listener as being “out of line” with some form of expectation isn’t the best way to put them at ease. In fact, ideally neither person should feel out of line in a mutual interaction like this.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#188

Post by Ididntdothis »

teekert wrote: post #131
Ididntdothis wrote: post #103

Last year I was on a project where we couldn’t get something to work despite all efforts. Pretty much all managers walked by some weeks in and asked “why don’t you just do X?”. Whenever I heard the J word I pretty much stopped listening and told them “no problem. here is the code. Here is the server. Just do it.”. It’s incredibly disrespectful to walk up to people who have worked on something for months and then you…

I think you would be a difficult person to work with if you get offended by that one little word. I understand that it can be annoying to be asked repeatedly but just work on an elevator pitch to explain why you didn't use X. You might even earn some respect in the process. The way you act now will "just" (sorry!) make people feel like that have to walk on eggs around you and handle your brittle mood with silk gloves…

I am usually pretty patient with people and generally don’t get offended. In this particular case we had worked very hard on that problem for a long time. This project was highly visible so everybody knew what’s going on.

I think people (I tend to do that too) should think twice before giving unsolicited advice and make sure they have thought about the problem for a while and have something of value to offer. Otherwise it signals a lack of respect.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#189

Post by rbongers »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #181
carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Personally I hate it when my PRs come back like this. I made a PR so my code and my decisions could be reviewed and critiqued. If you have some criticism, just tell me what it is and why you think that. I have learnt so much from highly critical PRs, I hate to think where I’d be without them. Personally I think it’s much more productive to create a culture where criticism is made openly and without being taken as a p…

But questions like this can be used to better understand the engineering decision. There have been plenty of times when questions like this have saved me typing out a long, critical response because there was something I didn't understand, and most of the other times it helps me better frame my response or change my criticism entirely.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#190

Post by r-w »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #81

I would just say "why can't you just use xxx". If they are moderately competent, they will instantly say "xxx doesn't work for this because the abc can't be compiled on this hardware", they'll have thought of it too, because it's probably not just obvious for you, and now they have helped you get up to speed on this complex problem. I don't think you can use magic phrases, or avoid magic phrases, to manipulate people…

> who cares what jerks think of you?

I do, as their coworker who has to put up with them!

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