Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car • Hacker News Board

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#181

Post by really3452 » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #101

rosybox wrote: post #56

However you may feel about the theft charge, if you find a tracker on your car, don't take it off. It's an occasion to call the police. Someone is either committing a crime by tracking you illegally or you're letting the police know you found their tracker. Maybe they'll remove it, as once the tracker is known to exist it's useless. If you want to go the route of civil disobedience and take it off on moral grounds, y…

> However you may feel about the theft charge, if you find a tracker on your car, don't take it off. Yes, but ... > It's an occasion to call the police. If you are a drug dealer it is an occasion to hide your supply extra hard. And use a second car/taxi for your drug dealing while using the compromised car for perfectly legal things like an upstanding citizen.

> If you are a drug dealer it is an occasion to hide your supply extra hard.

I suspect he did. Most likely the police planted the glass pipe that was found when searching for the tracking device so that they could obtain permission from the judge for the second search.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#182

Post by Faark » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #116

huffmsa wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had he been made aware of the tracking device, like one is with an ankle monitoring bracelet, then sure, removal is cause for an arrest on theft, destruction of property, etc. However, since he was not made aware of the device, he has no obligation to be compliant. If the police were tapping someone's phone and they threw away the phone, for whatever reason, would they be in a similar situation? If they avoided a hum…

They claim that a police tracker is obviously different than a civilian one. Didn't say how. But if it becomes illegal to remove a police tracker, how soon before the civilian ones resemble the police ones?

> how soon before the civilian ones resemble the police ones

This doesn't feel like a strong argument. A police uniform doesn't become useless just because bad guys could wear the same.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#183

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

lmkg wrote: post #165

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #153

Lots of hypotheticals, fun reading here. My thought: Isn't there something about bearing witness against yourself? In America you're not required to do so. Isn't removing a tracking device something like pleading the 5th? Others suggest you should return it to the police, but it seems to me there are way better approaches to that than handing it over. Its a tracking device, right? They're going to find it, wherever y…

Installing the tracking device requires a warrant, meaning it's classified as a "search," not as testimony. It's 4th Amendment territory, not 5th Amendment. If removing the tracking device is pleading the 5th, then putting the tracking device on at all would be a violation of the 5th Amendment. You can philosophize a testimonial aspect into almost anything, but the courts take a more narrow view of what gets protecte…

To continue hypotheticals, once you know its there it becomes a voluntary act to continue. You have to continue to (allow) reporting of your location. That sounds more like 5th territory.

Anyway I see its not speech, so not testimony.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#184

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #175

throwaway_tech wrote: post #154

Whats really troubling here is in the future, the police could get a warrant to track a vehicle, take the tracker off themselves, then go back to the courts claiming there is probable cause the suspect stole the tracker and get the warrant to search for their tracker in the suspects home and parents home...of course searching for whatever it is they really wanted but had no right to search for.

It has always been possible to fabricate evidence. What's troubling to me isn't the behavior of the police (who have done much worse) but the judge, who approved the warrant on ridiculous grounds, even though the judiciary is meant to be a check on the power of the executive.

> even though the judiciary is meant to be a check on the power of the executive.

Yeah, that hasn't really been working out for us.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#185

Post by nordsieck » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #123

nordsieck wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL My understanding is that it's the Police's property. If you find it, you can probably legally remove it from the car, but you can't keep it or prevent the Police from recovering it. This might be interesting to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding

This isn't they by finding. There is a difference between finding an object on the side of the road versus finding an object arched to your property.

> This isn't they by finding. There is a difference between finding an object on the side of the road versus finding an object arched to your property.

Sure.

If you're car gets booted, you can't keep that either.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#186

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #41

If someone drops something in my car, and I unwittingly drive off with it, it is still not mine. But I did not steal it. If the person asks for it back, and I refuse, then I am stealing it. All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft. If he denied knowledge of it (like if it had just fallen off somewhere) that doesn't sound like sufficient grounds for a…

>All the police had to do was knock on his door and ask for it back. If he refused, that's grounds for theft.

No, it's not. For all the police knew, as you say, it could have fallen off on its own. Definitely not PC.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#187

Post by m-p-3 » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #180

Can the police now run up and strap a camera to my forehead, compelling me to leave it there, allowing them to observe my movements, and charging me with a crime for removing it? I guess when this happens I have to drop it off at a police station. TIL

They can with an ankle monitor, the camera implies a more invasive privacy situation though.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#188

Post by dkersten » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #99

tsimionescu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't say that media and public shame are worse than the abuses of the criminal justice system. Your life may get turned upside down if you are simply accused of some crimes (especially sexual crimes), but you may very well bounce back. Getting rightly accused of possession of light drugs and ending up in prison is a much worse outcome, and it happens to many, many times more people. And unlike the celebrities th…

How is actually committing a crime and going to prison somehow worse than being wrongfully accused and affected for life?

We have no way of knowing that the police didn't plant the evidence to save face and justify the warrant. Shit like that's happened before. There are plenty of cases of people going to jail and being much, much later exonerated and there are cases of being framed by police. We don't know how many more people are rotting in jail who are completely innocent.

I mean, sure, it might not be likely, but the point is, these police were willing to do unscrupulous things to catch the guy, so how do we know?

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#189

Post by manigandham » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #188

manigandham wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is actually committing a crime and going to prison somehow worse than being wrongfully accused and affected for life?

We have no way of knowing that the police didn't plant the evidence to save face and justify the warrant. Shit like that's happened before. There are plenty of cases of people going to jail and being much, much later exonerated and there are cases of being framed by police. We don't know how many more people are rotting in jail who are completely innocent. I mean, sure, it might not be likely, but the point is, these…

That's beside the point. The parent comment was saying that being rightfully guilty is worse than being innocent and assumed guilty because they disagree with the severity of the crime.

To me, being innocent yet treated as guilty is far worse, and in fact the US justice system holds that as a core principle.

Re: Indiana man charged with theft for removing police tracking device from car

#190

Post by tsimionescu » Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #174

tsimionescu wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, first of all it's a matter of numbers. Maybe hundreds of people's lives has been affected by being accused of a crime and being judged by the public eye with a presumption of guilt (some of these people may be guilty, some may not). However, hundreds of thousands of people are suffering from vastly over-exaggerated punishment for minor crimes. Even more, the current political climate suggests that some of what…

The crime is irrelevant. The discussion is whether you are guilty or not as an individual. If you willing commit a crime (regardless of how you feel about the law) then you are rightfully punished. The problem is when you're innocent and still get punished anyway.

Well, if you stole a pack of gum and are executed for it, that's still a problem, even though you're technically guilty.

And again, in the real world, there are maybe hundreds of people suffering public outrage even though they are innocent, and there are tens of thousands of people who are serving extremely harsh sentences for minor crimes. The first is regrettable, the second is a major societal issue.