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Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

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Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#181

Post by [deleted] »

quotemstr wrote: post #167
rogerkirkness wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with this. I struggle with non-violent communication. All the violence I've experienced in communication has been high social skill people passive aggressively using "appropriate channels" and "emotional intelligence" to harm me. I tend to prefer directness whether it's up or down the power ladder, and yet the trend is away from that overall. It's sort of minority rule too, where most people prefer di…

> All the violence I've experienced in communication has been high social skill people passive aggressively using "appropriate channels" and "emotional intelligence" to harm me. What would be useful is a kind of "defense against the dark arts" program aimed at teaching people who prefer and practice direct communication to defend against these harms without feeling like they have to start using manipulative tricks th…

[deleted]

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#182

Post by nhumrich »

chongli wrote: post #90
chroma wrote: post #86

Nonviolent communication comes up on HN every few months and it's always the same praises and criticisms. I've been on the receiving end of NVC quite a few times in my career, and every single time it comes off as patronizing bullshit. I'd rather people yell at me than couch everything in, "I feel X" or "Would you be willing to Y". When important things must be done well, do you think this sort of language is used? O…

As a math student considering a teaching career, I recently took a course on math education taught by a retired high school math teacher. One of the things she placed a heavy emphasis on was our questioning techniques and classroom management strategies. Every single one of the non-violent communication strategies you listed from the article were specifically singled out as things we should never say when asking ques…

NVC is for finding mutual purpose. A classroom setting, the goal is to encourage students to push themselves. Their is no mutual purpose. Their goal of staying silent and doing as little as possible directly opposes your goal of wanting them to learn and push themselves. This is why I like the book crucial conversations. Step 1 is: identifying a crucial conversation. And you only apply the techniques in those situations. They are only intended for those types of situations, not everything. A crucial conversation is a conversation where 1. Stakes are high 2. Emotions run strong 3. Opinions vary

All three have to be true for these techniques to be useful.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#183

Post by kungtotte »

ctdonath wrote: post #155
nerdponx wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In those situations, everyone is assumed to be an adult who is strong enough to take direct criticism. This is the example given in the article: [1. Observe Facts] Felix, when I see two balls of soiled socks under the coffee table, [2. Note Feelings] I feel irritated because [3. Uncover Desires] I want more order in the rooms that we share in common - [4. Make Requests] would you be willing to put your socks in the w…

Vs “quit leaving dirty socks under the coffee table.” That’s direct & natural.

And less likely to achieve desired results...

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#184

Post by swsieber »

_def wrote: post #12
n42 wrote: post #7

I learned this at a company retreat at some point. We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. It takes a little care and thought to apply it well. I've found when done effectively, it can unlock difficult conversations and turn even the most hostile interactions into productive conversations. You are demon…

> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. Reactions like that tell me once again that a lot of people really underestimate simple stuff like this. I hope that in the future simple and useful psychology topics will find their way into our schools so that the acceptance and understanding for the usefulnes…

I instead hope that parents start teaching it to children. While my online decorum has major room for improvements, I feel like I'm pretty conscientious in my in person interactions and gained a lot of that through explicit instructions from my parents.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#185

Post by jhncls »

bhy wrote: post #169
megous wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though if you just follow the reasons behind the four points in the article and implement them your way, it would be fine too, no? It's like with lots of these communication systems. (P.E.T. is similar, but more oriented at communicatuion with children) The authors have some specific examples of situations, and how they'd communicate, but it's all driven by some core principles and goals, and as long as you're also d…

Could you provide a link towards "P.E.T."? The term is not googleble..

Parent Effectiveness Training:

https://www.gordontraining.com/parent-programs/parent-effect...

https://www.parentskills.com.au/blog/pet-page-summary-skills...

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#186

Post by nhumrich »

ctdonath wrote: post #155
nerdponx wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In those situations, everyone is assumed to be an adult who is strong enough to take direct criticism. This is the example given in the article: [1. Observe Facts] Felix, when I see two balls of soiled socks under the coffee table, [2. Note Feelings] I feel irritated because [3. Uncover Desires] I want more order in the rooms that we share in common - [4. Make Requests] would you be willing to put your socks in the w…

Vs “quit leaving dirty socks under the coffee table.” That’s direct & natural.

Natural is not always better. Human behavior on average doesn't actually respond well to direct criticism. Our flight or fight responses kick in ("uggh fine" or deflecting) and cause us to handle the situation in suboptimal ways. This is probably not a great example as it feels more like a parenting example, but even in parenting, a lot of parenting material suggests that "commands" (pick up your socks) often leads to the opposite behavior where as stating your feelings helps the child learn feel empathy for you, and make the decision themselves to respect you or not. In work situations, imagine telling a coworker that you find their desk messy. Are you just going to say "clean up your desk"? No, because you cant control them. Are you going to say "you have a messy desk" or "you are a slob" no, because they take that as accusatory. Accusing is like saying "its about me not you". While this NVC framework may feel disingenuous, its actually significantly more empathic than just being direct because it forces a conversation where you can find mutual purpose. (How is this a win win?) A direct statement is actually a lie you tell yourself where you are assuming a lot and not allowing a process of changing your own mind. So being direct is actually succumbing to your own biases.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#187

Post by jimkleiber »

catalogia wrote: post #72
munchbunny wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what your rendition of "empathetic" is in this case.

When somebody communicates with me using NVC, it feels like they are treating me like a cog in the machine that needs adjusting. They're approaching the conversation with a goal-oriented mindset, where engineering circumstances that result in my compliance is a puzzle they've been tasked with solving. The appearance of caring about my feelings, the apparent empathy, is only a facade. The other party doesn't care abou…

> NVC is a framework for direct communication. To quote the article: > 1. Observe Facts - observe the specific facts that are > affecting our wellbeing, and bring them up with the other person > 2. Note Feelings - introspect about what exactly we are feeling in response to what we've observed, and communicate these feelings > 3. Uncover Desires - figure out the desires, wants and values that are creating our feelings, and explain them to the other person > 4. Make Requests - ask for concrete actions to help resolve the situation

I think why you may find it dehumanizing is that, if I were using those four steps above, I would just be reflecting on my own humanity, and not on yours. So, by the time I end those four steps, the only connection I've really had to you is asking if you will do something.

--

I use three steps (yes, another formula) that seem to solve the dehumanizing problem:

Step 1) TRUTH: Tell the truth about how you actually feel in the moment.

Step 2) FAIR PLAY: Tell the other person how you imagine they might feel.

Step 3) LOVE: Say one thing to connect with love.

Step 1 is not so different from the second step of NVC, really just focusing on me and what I feel/need/want/etc and being honest about that. In the workshops I've run, I've seen most of us skip this step.

Step 2 is the kicker, it's not about connecting with me, but connecting with what you might feel/need/want/notice/etc. And it's about imagining what the person might be feeling, not knowing that the person is feeling X.

Step 3 is the closer, finalizing the connection between the two: thank you, I'm sorry, I hope you have a good day, will you help me, etc.

--

I'm stoked that this conversation is happening on HN, excited that you said what you said (in typing this response I have learned even more about NVC and my work), and tired—I definitely should head to bed after this. And I imagine you might be frustrated with all this NVC stuff, perhaps nauseated by another formula or maybe even curious, or perhaps pleasantly surprised, I have no idea. Thank you for making this conversation happen.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#189

Post by atoav »

novok wrote: post #46
_def wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. Reactions like that tell me once again that a lot of people really underestimate simple stuff like this. I hope that in the future simple and useful psychology topics will find their way into our schools so that the acceptance and understanding for the usefulnes…

When you actually read the book, you find it has a very awkward way of speaking which can induce eyerolls.

I read it ages ago in it’s German translation and while I remember there was a bit of awkwardness, I always understood it as an exaggeration for the sake of the example. My main takeaway was not the kind of language described in the book, but the thoughts behind it: the effects of your phrasing on how your message is received etc.

I think I mostly use the ideas from the book without thinking at this point — and in order for that to work you most likely will have to find your own way.

Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication

#190

Post by nhumrich »

mikekchar wrote: post #82
aeternum wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that some of my most worthwhile relationships have been with people that pushed me out of the comfort zone. I'd say make sure that if you do push people to change, it is for their benefit rather than yours.

I think the key word there is "require". It's always great to try to help people, but in the end which road they walk down is up to them. My take on it is "Never expect other people to change, but also don't expect them not to change either".

The word require was never actually used, so not sure how it can be a key word.
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