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Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

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Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#181

Post by ska »

commandlinefan wrote: post #168
ucha wrote: post #135

It seems that almost all the comments are about the downfall of MBAs. The actual article - not the title - says applications rose in Europe, China and quite dramatically in Canada. If applications rise by 9% in Canada while they decrease by 9% in the US, it's quite a good argument for the thesis of the author which is that immigration restrictions are responsible. It used to be easy to get an MBA in the US then get a…

Well, I know this sort of sentiment is usually dismissed as xenophobia but… where’s the evidence that this is a bad thing _for U.S. citizens_?

> where’s the evidence that this is a bad thing _for U.S. citizens_?

apropos in a discussion of MBA schools:

https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-e...

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#182

Post by appleiigs »

The same folks here who crap on MBAs, will also get super excited about Y Combinator Startup School, despite both of them teaching about business.

Lets go through the Y Combinator Startup School curriculum and I'll put the MBA version in square brackets[].

Startup School 2019 Orientation: How to Talk to Users [MBA: Business Communication, Marketing/Strategy], How to Evaluate Startup Ideas Pt. 1 [MBA: Marketing/Strategy]

WEEK 2: How to Plan an MVP [MBA: Marketing/Strategy], How to Set KPIs and Goals [MBA: Accounting, Operations, Human Resources/Leadership], Analytics for Startups [MBA: Statistics],

WEEK 3: Nine Business Models and the Metrics Investors Want [MBA: Marketing/Strategy, Finance], How Investors Measure Startups Q&A,

WEEK 4: How to Launch (Again and Again) [MBA: Marketing/Strategy], Growth for Startups [MBA: Marketing/Strategy],

WEEK 5: Startup Finance Pitfalls and How to Avoid Them [MBA: Finance], How to Work Together [MBA: Human Resources/Leadership],

WEEK 6: Building Culture [MBA: Human Resources/Leadership], All About Pivoting [MBA: Marketing/Strategy],

WEEK 7: How to Improve Conversion Rates [MBA: Marketing], Startup Pricing 101 [MBA: Marketing/Strategy, Finance],

WEEK 8: How to Prioritize Your Time [MBA: Human Resources/Leadership], How to Evaluate Startup Ideas Pt. 2 [MBA: Marketing/Strategy],

WEEK 9: Modern Startup Financing [MBA: Finance], Advice for Hard-tech and Biotech Founders [MBA: Case-studies],

WEEK 10: How to Lead [MBA: Human Resources/Leadership], Startup School 2019 by the Numbers, Parting Advice, GRADUATION

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#183

Post by BeetleB »

iamasoftwaredev wrote: post #120
airstrike wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> little to no empirical evidence that it prepares students for business success in the real world. I haven't seen much evidence to the contrary, either. All I see is anecdotes from both sides, so I'll give MBAs the benefit of the doubt. Speaking for myself, I am an entirely different person after completing my MBA. I've become an analytical thinker to a fault and maintain my soft skills. Learned a metric shit ton of…

> so I'll give MBAs the benefit of the doubt Why, that seems like a rather silly thing to give the benefit of the doubt on. Hiring someone into a high responsibility role based on education rather than experience and proven ability. I don't see why you would do that... > I am an entirely different person after completing my MBA ah.

> Hiring someone into a high responsibility role based on education rather than experience and proven ability.

You mean like almost all other jobs out there?

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#184

Post by EB66 »

sedachv wrote: post #172
airstrike wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really that generalized as you can pick 1 or more majors and focus on what you want to learn most. Not to mention each MBA school has different characteristics, attracting different candidates and campus recruiters. Stanford and Booth couldn't be more different if they tried. MBA graduates are also not fit for running literally any business. The only thing employers know is that if you come from a top 10 MBA…

> the GMAT is a tough exam It might work ok as a way to filter out people who had a poor quality undergraduate education, but it is not a tough exam. I got a 700-something score (95th percentile) in 2011 on my first try with less than 6 hours of preparation. The math portion of the GMAT was primarily about doing mental arithmetic, and did not involve any mathematical concepts past the middle school level. The languag…

> but it is not a tough exam

Ideally you don't want a test that's too easy or too tough. You want a test whose results form a normal distribution bell curve.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#185

Post by golemiprague »

stevesimmons wrote: post #149
bertjk wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can accept the pretty smart part (I've never seen the GMAT but I'll accept it for the sake of argument) but what part of getting an MBA filters for "possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected"?

> what part of getting an MBA filters for "possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected"? MBAs at the top schools demand intense team work. Without it, you won't pass. My MBA experience was INSEAD, in France. For the first 3 terms (of 5), all work was done in teams of 5. The school chose the teams explicitly to maximise the chance of conflict (by ma…

So if diversity makes things so hard why everybody insists on creating diversity in your teams? I understand you might need to face it but why not keep team homogenous to get the best out of them without too much trouble?

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#186

Post by alasdair_ »

bertjk wrote: post #106
airstrike wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really that generalized as you can pick 1 or more majors and focus on what you want to learn most. Not to mention each MBA school has different characteristics, attracting different candidates and campus recruiters. Stanford and Booth couldn't be more different if they tried. MBA graduates are also not fit for running literally any business. The only thing employers know is that if you come from a top 10 MBA…

I can accept the pretty smart part (I've never seen the GMAT but I'll accept it for the sake of argument) but what part of getting an MBA filters for "possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected"?

>what part of getting an MBA filters for "possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected"?

An MBA is extremely team-driven. Classes are heavily discussion focused rather than having a lecturer simply teach a subject. There are lots of presentations and routine working with others.

I know all degrees have this to an extent but the MBA experience is exceptional in the level of collaboration needed. Because most of the people taking an MBA class have several years of real-world company experience, you end up learning heavily from the cohort as a whole rather than simple the "expert" professor.

I have a CS degree and an MBA and the difference in the amount of interpersonal effort between the two degrees is enormous.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#187

Post by alasdair_ »

chrisfinazzo wrote: post #164
airstrike wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple in-person interviews, your resume has to be pretty balanced (you can't just be a math wiz), you need to show a track record of performing well on the job for 3-5 years prior to your MBA, usually in the form of multiple promotions, which signals you're not terrible to work with. Also helps to have a broad range of interests (including things you like doing for fun) because admission committees don't…

Honest question: Do you think this disadvantages people who have basically followed a traditional path? By that I mean, if you are a finance major from Harvard, Yale, etc who goes to work at a large firm (say Goldman). Is there a chance they might get looked down upon because of the emphasis on the "whole person" or finding "interesting" candidates. Poets & Quants MBA odds doesn't talk about those kids, yet they will…

>Is there a chance they might get looked down upon because of the emphasis on the "whole person" or finding "interesting" candidates.

There is a deliberate admissions emphasis on ensuring the class is as diverse (in terms of viewpoint and experience) as possible. An MBA class full of only people with finance degrees would be a poor experience for everyone.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#188

Post by [deleted] »

airstrike wrote: post #74
rswail wrote: post #6

Good. The rise of the MBA has seen the downfall of quality. "Business Administration" is not something that can be taught in such a generic way that an MBA qualifies you to actually run a business. In particular, the rise of Financial "Engineering" has led to huge inequality and the total disconnection of "Wall St" from "Main St" such that their relationship has been completely inverted.

It's not really that generalized as you can pick 1 or more majors and focus on what you want to learn most. Not to mention each MBA school has different characteristics, attracting different candidates and campus recruiters. Stanford and Booth couldn't be more different if they tried. MBA graduates are also not fit for running literally any business. The only thing employers know is that if you come from a top 10 MBA…

[deleted]

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#189

Post by BeetleB »

aoveri wrote: post #50

Having started my own company and done everything from doing coffee runs for my team to writing investment briefs, I'm not sure what an MBA would teach me? Not being snarky, genuinely curious as to what benefit I could derive as I've always seen as something that I'd eventually pursue.

The only really appropriate response I can give is:

Ask someone who, like you, built a business and then went for an MBA. Definitely don't ask people who don't have an MBA.

The only example that comes to mind: Angie Hicks of Angie's List fame. Although she didn't run Angie's List, she probably knew all of the ins and outs of it. Then she left it to get an MBA from HBS. You can hear about her experience on "How I Built This":

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/17/639532403/angies-list-angie-h...

The summary: She found some aspects beneficial. She also found some of what they taught to be bad advice given her knowledge of running a business. So yes, she did gain something out of it.

I'm sure I've heard other How I Built This episodes where the founder later got an MBA, but I don't recall which ones they were.

Now having answered that: Some comments for you:

Your question is isomorphic to "Having taught myself programming and earning over $200K/year, I'm not sure what a CS degree would teach me." The answer is "It will likely teach you things, but it's not clear they will further your career," The other response to such a question would be: "Not everyone can be as effective in teaching themselves and getting a job as you were, so there is still value in the degree for many people."

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#190

Post by snagglegaggle »

EB66 wrote: post #184
sedachv wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the GMAT is a tough exam It might work ok as a way to filter out people who had a poor quality undergraduate education, but it is not a tough exam. I got a 700-something score (95th percentile) in 2011 on my first try with less than 6 hours of preparation. The math portion of the GMAT was primarily about doing mental arithmetic, and did not involve any mathematical concepts past the middle school level. The languag…

> but it is not a tough exam Ideally you don't want a test that's too easy or too tough. You want a test whose results form a normal distribution bell curve.

Such logic leaves you with no idea if the top X% is qualified or not, just that they are the top X%. You need to enumerate requirements and test against them.

Same thinking leads to weed out classes that just pointlessly limit the number in some profession. Saying "wow, everyone passed calculus, that can't be right" and making the test harder serves no one.

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