Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#181

Post by blensor » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #152

blensor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are they bending the rules if they try to prove that a human can run a marathon distance in less than two hours? I am not arguing that he has run a marathon below 2:00, but he is the first recorded human that has achieved such a feat - which is kind of a barrier many people have tried to break or at least recognized to exist - even though it has required them to remove all possible outside factors like wind and t…

the human had artificial draft from a car and humans, so the human alone didn't run the marathon in less than two hours.

Are you sure that he had artificial draft from the pace car? From the photos it was at least 1 1/2 body lengths in front of him and since it was projecting the optimal path for the pacers the distance was probably very constant the whole time.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#182

Post by gamblor956 » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

yk wrote: post #158

blensor wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do recognize that the bar is arbitrarily set I do still believe that there is a significant difference between a scenario that could very well happen by chance in the normal world (optimal weather, zero wind, optimal surface) compared to doping and pushing the runner with wind from behind.

Well, we have arbitrary rules, that produce a result close to an arbitrary timespan. Then you change the rules in a way that breaks the timespan, in a way that is compatible with an ill defined cultural expectation what is essential and what is incidential of the original rules. I mean, of course to I realize that a fan would violate some expectation of long distance running more severly than pacemakers and a special…

They didn't change the rules. That is why it is not a world record. Because they broke specific rules to see if it was possible at all before attempting it in record eligible conditions.

The importance of the attempt is that nobody knew if it was actually possible to run a marathon in under 2 hours without performance enhancing substances, i.e., if the theoretical estimate was unattainable in real world attempts.

The use of the pacing car and bringing the water to him are the only things that would not be replicated in a real world race, since runners already pace and draft off each other in the lead group of a marathon.

Expect to see several attempts to come close to 2 hours on the best several Marathon Majors races with a likely would record in Kipchoge's next competitive marathon.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#183

Post by scabarott » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #153

scabarott wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the first 4-minute mile was achieved in a similar manner and for some reason it is well known in the popular imagination. To be honest I think these arbitrary marks of achievement are all very artificial and more about good PR more than anything else. Personally I think the 2 hour marathon is slightly less arbitrary than the 4-minute mile but breaking it was only a matter of time.

they did not have an suv to draft behind, and the pacers had to keep up from the start

This doesn't make it any less artificial or arbitrary. The marathon is a different beast from the mile and it doesn't make much sense to compare two different eras.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#184

Post by majani » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #132

segmondy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that was not heated but toxic. I had to nope out of that after reading the first 2 pages.

Not toxic, just informed. When people follow a sport closely ("passionately") they're more likely to be offended by and call out bullshit. The shoes provide a significant mechanical advantage that most consider unfair. Others claim they're just shoes, but then you might as well claim that rollerblades are shoes. This comes on the heels of US anti doping handing a 4 year ban to the coach of Nike's elite running team.…

All top level athletes are on gear. Modern sports live off of constant feats of wonder and congested schedules. Neither of which are sustainable without performance enhancement. However when all of them are on, you could still say that the winner/record breaker did it fair and square.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#185

Post by mewop » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #50

yk wrote: post #36

That is, while impressive, pretty meaningless. The thing is, that sports are defined by their rules and to the best of my understanding the long distance running rules are written to prevent teamwork. (Unlike cycling, which is explicitly a team sport.) Basically, the two hour mark is important in the specific circumstances of Olympic marathon, and was broken in a different sport. To broaden the discussion a bit, it s…

This kind of comment really depresses me. Someone achieves something absolutely amazing and some random commenter on the net will be happy to belittle it in every way that they can think of.

It's ok.. They probably can't climb two flights of stairs without stopping

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#186

Post by lazyjones » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #148

It should be noted there are, at least 3 things here that make this quite a bit different than a normal marathon: * questionable shoes, but personally I'm fine with this, its just better shoes! * the pace car is too close providing large aerodynamic advantage * the pace makers aren't in the race from the start, might as well just let the car get even closer and dispense with the charade entirely The last two points m…

Do the pacemakers not provide an aerodynamic advantage, when they are running in a close group just before him?

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#187

Post by skrebbel » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

DevX101 wrote: post #96

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #57

So Kipchoge had rotating teams of pacemakers running _before_ him, throughout the race. Each team was able to outrun Kipchoge for a short amount of time, but of course Kipchoge himself had to keep the same pace throughout the race. This reminded me of an episode from Terry Pratchett's Small Gods . This is mostly from memory, but he describes an invasion of the country Ephebe where the invasion force comes from the si…

The benefit of the support runners wasn't just to help him keep pace (he could probably do this with music). They also provide a drafting help to limit any head-on air resistance.

Is that significant when running?

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#188

Post by morelisp » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #150

morelisp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remembered this article also, thanks for digging it up again. Its predictions were pretty spot-on: - Predicted in November, actual mid-October - Predicted in Debno, actual in Vienna, but both are very flat courses (I can't find if Debno is flatter) - "The pacemakers will form a human wall" - yes, pacemaker strategy seemed critical here. - "Mindblowing pay-day" - No clue, no articles seem to mention it. - "Kenyans w…

> the shoes I guess - I don't know how big an advance these are The pacers wore Vaporfly, Kipchoge wore a prototype. The Vaporfly have been shown to actually make a difference of around 4%. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-v...

But he also wore Vaporfly for his 2017 attempt, I thought - I doubt the prototype is 4% on top of that, or even 4% compared to what top-class runners were wearing before.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#189

Post by majani » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

morelisp wrote: post #104

anonu wrote: post #80

Reminds me of this post on HN from 5 years ago: what will it take to run a 2 hour marathon? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8439408 Unfortunately the linked article seems to have disappeared. I wonder if today's record was run with those special Nike shoes with the blades inside... The ones that supposedly give you a 1 percent boost or something similar... If you have shoes that give you such a boost, is it dopi…

I remembered this article also, thanks for digging it up again. Its predictions were pretty spot-on: - Predicted in November, actual mid-October - Predicted in Debno, actual in Vienna, but both are very flat courses (I can't find if Debno is flatter) - "The pacemakers will form a human wall" - yes, pacemaker strategy seemed critical here. - "Mindblowing pay-day" - No clue, no articles seem to mention it. - "Kenyans w…

I'm in Kenya and the word is it's a $4m official payday with many other well wishers pledging to pay him now.

Re: Eliud Kipchoge Breaks Two-Hour Marathon Barrier

#190

Post by sorenjan » Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

demiourgos wrote: post #174

sorenjan wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the shoes I guess - I don't know how big an advance these are The pacers wore Vaporfly, Kipchoge wore a prototype. The Vaporfly have been shown to actually make a difference of around 4%. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-v...

No way. That was advertisement. You can check the results on strava or elsewhere. Nobody had 4% decrease in time after switching to this shoes.

NY Times used data from Strava to write the article, and there are other sources as well. Like this study from 2017:

A Comparison of the Energetic Cost of Running in Marathon Racing Shoes

> Conclusion

> The prototype shoes lowered the energetic cost of running by 4% on average. We predict that with these shoes, top athletes could run substantially faster and achieve the first sub-2-hour marathon.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0811-2