No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy • Hacker News Board

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#181

Post by collyw » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:24 AM UTC

tomlock wrote: post #80

ve55 wrote: post #9

>In the largest study of its kind, results challenge the notion of autism as reflecting an “extreme male brain.” I don't see how this is related, unless you think the only 'maleness' that can exist in a brain is testosterone levels. There are so many things that could be tested and analyzed here besides testosterone levels.

What's cool is that if people take a more nuanced view of gender and sex than saying it can be measured by one test with only two options, it means they can't take the narrow view that either of those things are binary. Here's hoping!

Sex is binary, with the exception some extremely rare cases of non XY / XX chromosome options.

Gender used to be a synonym for sex until the language got hijacked in the last few years to try and make it mean "gender identity" for political reasons.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#182

Post by vanderZwan » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

EndXA wrote: post #10

Abstract of the original paper: > The capacity to infer others' mental states (known as ‘mind reading’ and ‘cognitive empathy’) is essential for social interactions across species, and its impairment characterizes psychopathological conditions such as autism spectrum disorder and schizophrenia. Previous studies reported that testosterone administration impaired cognitive empathy in healthy humans, and that a putative…

So... is this a tentative win for the nurture crowd then? Or did they strictly only show that there is no correlation between testosterone, without going into alternative options?

EDIT: glaugh's comment[0] explains why it is not. TLDR: this research debunks earlier research with a similar scope, but more long-term effects of testosterone are not accounted for.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21143846

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#183

Post by vanderZwan » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:37 AM UTC

glaugh wrote: post #152

Most of the effects of administering testosterone (at least to men with clinically low levels) take weeks or months to appear. For example, interest in sex takes 3+ weeks to increase. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/ And much of the impact of testosterone happens in utero (Young boys and girls have similar levels; behavioral differences are driven by in utero exposure.) This study seems to test a…

You indirectly answered a question I had about what this means for the nature/nurture debate, thank you.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#184

Post by collyw » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:40 AM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #163

moosey wrote: post #105

What I'm more interested in seeing is whether or not being in a dominant group in society reduces empathy. Historically, we might have looked at the lack of empathy of specific groups and made assumptions about the group in general, but perhaps it simply has to do with whether or not that group finds itself dominant in society whether it be economically, politically, or socially. All of these groups in Western societ…

Or maybe societies are dominated by overambitious sociopaths, regardless of their gender? I feel we are long past the 'no true Scotsman' defense of woman in public office on average just exhibiting the same ruthless self-interest as the men they replaced.

True, the most sexist (in the sense that men were treated differently from women) boss I have seen was a woman. She seemed to prey on weaker personalities, an d treated men better than women.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#185

Post by tomlock » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 11:30 AM UTC

collyw wrote: post #181

tomlock wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's cool is that if people take a more nuanced view of gender and sex than saying it can be measured by one test with only two options, it means they can't take the narrow view that either of those things are binary. Here's hoping!

Sex is binary, with the exception some extremely rare cases of non XY / XX chromosome options. Gender used to be a synonym for sex until the language got hijacked in the last few years to try and make it mean "gender identity" for political reasons.

If there's cases that don't fit the simplistic binary, the more accurate and comprehensive view is that it's not binary.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#186

Post by intarga » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 11:47 AM UTC

another-one-off wrote: post #150

lanstin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic masculinity isn't "being masculine is bad" it's "being so caught up in social stereotypes of supposed masculinity that you become bad." Toxic masculinity vs. healthy masculinity. At least in people that use the phrase seriously that I've interacted with conversationally. Not to dispute that some people think maleness is inherently bad (or that the supposed duality of gender reflects a supposed duality of morali…

I'm struggling to think of any aspects of masculinity that I could safely class as 'healthy' in the current climate. For example, traditionally the view that males should be providers for the family would have been considered a healthy aspect of masculinity. That doesn't go unchallenged any more; for example there is a real concern out there that men are too competitive and effective at securing high paid jobs. It is…

> For example, traditionally the view that males should be providers for the family would have been considered a healthy aspect of masculinity. That doesn't go unchallenged any more; for example there is a real concern out there that men are too competitive and effective at securing high paid jobs.

That isn't toxic masculinity, it's a gender norm. What would be toxically masculine about it, is if a man felt forced by society to fulfill that role, regardless of his own feelings and desires.

Feminists challenge that norm and the societal pressure that drives it, but there's nothing wrong or toxically masculine with a man doing that because he genuinely wants to and isn't forcing anyone else into a role.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#187

Post by gerbilly » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 11:48 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #127

Another victim in the "replication crisis" bloodbath for psychology. Personally, I'm probably going to wait 5 years before I believe any psychology science claim. Especially if it confirms something I already believe in :)

It's a kind HN received wisdom that all psychology studies are false or invalid.

Personally, I see this blanket dismissal as one of the blind spots of our otherwise intelligent community.

Perhaps because so many of us are engineers, and that it strokes our egos to see the softer sciences fail?

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#188

Post by belorn » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

another-one-off wrote: post #150

lanstin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic masculinity isn't "being masculine is bad" it's "being so caught up in social stereotypes of supposed masculinity that you become bad." Toxic masculinity vs. healthy masculinity. At least in people that use the phrase seriously that I've interacted with conversationally. Not to dispute that some people think maleness is inherently bad (or that the supposed duality of gender reflects a supposed duality of morali…

I'm struggling to think of any aspects of masculinity that I could safely class as 'healthy' in the current climate. For example, traditionally the view that males should be providers for the family would have been considered a healthy aspect of masculinity. That doesn't go unchallenged any more; for example there is a real concern out there that men are too competitive and effective at securing high paid jobs. It is…

What gender norm of either masculinity or femininity is healthy when taken to the extreme?

> those involved in the gender activist communities don't seem to allow such a thing as 'healthy masculinity' because it supposes there is something positive can be exclusively/predominantly masculine

What would you call people who would say that about femininity and feminine behavior? How do those views function together with the idea of gender equality, i.e. the state of valuing different behaviors, aspirations and needs equally, regardless of gender (definition copied from Wikipedia).

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#189

Post by BonerBoi420 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 12:13 PM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #72

bonerman69 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing estrogen blood levels will literally cause any male-sex person to become more empathetic via oxytocin...

Probably better to say "assigned male at birth" -- I'm not genetically male, but everyone assumed I was until I got tested after transitioning. The best medically relevant definitions are "person on testosterone", "person on estrogen" etc. There is a lot of suspicion that things like estrogen/androgen receptor binding affinity play a big role in gender identity and brain development, and we haven't even scratched the…

Sex =/= gender. Sex is determined by your chromosomes.

Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy

#190

Post by krapp » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 12:20 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #165

lanstin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic masculinity isn't "being masculine is bad" it's "being so caught up in social stereotypes of supposed masculinity that you become bad." Toxic masculinity vs. healthy masculinity. At least in people that use the phrase seriously that I've interacted with conversationally. Not to dispute that some people think maleness is inherently bad (or that the supposed duality of gender reflects a supposed duality of morali…

This is a typical "motte and bailey" conversational strategy. The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").

>The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").

Almost any article you read about toxic masculinity and in every discussion where it comes up, proponents take pains to point out, often in laborious detail, and to futile effect, that the term isn't meant to assign toxicity to all masculine behaviors. One shouldn't need to provide a list of "non-toxic" masculine behaviors as well as a list of "toxic feminine" behaviors in order for the concept to be understood as presented.

The people using toxic masculinity in mainstream conversation to mean "all masculinity is toxic" are, primarily, its opponents, not its proponents.