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A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

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Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#181

Post by ratww »

ceejayoz wrote: post #114
jordanpg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is that one of the best way to learn real lessons that stick in this line of work is to do it the hard way first. Being told you’re doing it the hard way and never learning firsthand why is no kind of lesson. These XY answers should contain a mention of Y, if relevant, skip the scolding, and answer the question.

Sometimes, "here's why you're about to accidentally put your head into a wood chipper" is enough to learn a lesson from.

If it were a wood chipping forum/chatroom, sure, but it's a programming Q&A... people might need the answer in the future.

If you have the answer but would rather the person not do it, just put a disclaimer on top of your answer.

If the question/answer combo is way too specific that there's no chance someone is going to to benefit from it the future, maybe it should die, like other posters said.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#182

Post by twic »

Pfhreak wrote: post #136

Reading between the lines, it looks like a queer mod felt unsupported by SE over a long period of time, and SE eventually decided to make a code of conduct change. These mods disagreed with that change (some using language like "thought crime") which precipitated their resignations?

Hold on, it's not clear to me that Aza's and Monica Cello's resignations are connected like this.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#183

Post by Havoc »

RIP SE

Reminds me of the company take overs where the key asset is human capital and they all just walk out the door after the deal. Congrats you bought an empty building for billions

Don't think SE is ever going to be profitable if they can't keep key figures happy

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#184

Post by mark-r »

enraged_camel wrote: post #163
wokwokwok wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... Just answer the question. You’re not there to babysit the question asker or convince them to change their approach/hair style/choice of library. I know it’s frustrating to see people doing something wrong, or that you don’t agree with, but you know what you can do? Just... don’t get involved if you can’t answer the actual question that was asked, and if it’s a bad question, let it die a natural death.

You can actually do both. Indeed, the most popular and heavily upvoted answers on SO tend to do just that, in the form of "here's the answer to the question you asked, and btw, I think this other thing here might be a better way to go about solving your broader problem and maybe avoiding the issue in your question altogether!".

There's one answer I had to do that with, simply because the title of the question didn't match the body of the question. I kept getting downvotes from people who came to the question via Google and found my answer didn't match their question.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#185

Post by comtn »

ratsmack wrote: post #151
alexhutcheson wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why didn't you write it in Rust?

Because I only know Python.

That is a poor example. Rust and Python are vastly dissimilar, and one could easily be recommended over the other for various reasons. Python for portability, Rust for system oriented programming. To say you don't use rust because you don't know it is an excuse, and a terrible one at that. i would say the learning curve of Python is similar to Rust, why not learn?

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#186

Post by jasode »

magicalhippo wrote: post #140
jasode wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know it’s frustrating for you, but asking a question _isn’t about you_. Well, if StackOveflow/StackExchange is still following Jeff Atwood's philosophy, asking a question isn't necessarily about the questioner either. The question & the answer is for the community more than questioner.[0] Understandably, most question askers see Stack Overflow as a "Siri/Alexa" type of resource to ask a question. E.g. If I ask Sir…

> The question & the answer is for the community more than questioner. Part of the confusion might be that they're very unclear about this point. For example, on the front page right now the following is prominently displayed: > Stack Overflow is an open community for anyone that codes. We help you get answers to your toughest coding questions, share knowledge with your coworkers in private, and find your next dream…

>, on the front page right now [...] "We help you get answers to your toughest coding questions, " -- Clearly that is something very different from building a "Q&A wiki" which you allude to.

That text blurb on the landing page is relatively new. It may not accurately reflect Stack Overflow's long-standing strict editorial focus. The new SO landing page appeared less than 4 months ago around June 27, 2019.[1][2]

In contrast, the following "wikipedia" intention is from the SO launch 11 years ago back in September 15, 2008: "Stack Overflow is a _collaboratively edited_ question and answer site for programmers"[0]

So from September 2008 to June of 2019, it has been ~11 years of endless confusion from users because Atwood/Spolsky's intended editorial purpose of Stack Overflow has been poorly explained -- and I would also contend that it's non-intuitive for most users and hard to understand. E.g. The following is too nuanced to explain to drive-by casual SO users: I'm not just asking _my_ particular question to get _my_ particular answer but actually seeding _a_ question that's also also a _helpful_ contribution to the _community_ to build a repository quality answers to questions.

>I guess the impedance mismatch [...] So individuals go on SO and think the site is about helping them, and then get confused about what happens next.

Yes, I totally agree why the confusion happens and why the same complaints about SO have been repeated for over a decade. It's because SO's editorial purpose is basically invisible and only manifested in the powers given to moderators[3] to downvote/close and for the tradition of fellow users pushing back with X/Y dissection instead of simply answering the question.

Does the June 2019 landing page mean that SO has changed and they want to be more of "Siri/Alexa" type of resource? I'm not an employee and I don't know.

[0] 2008-09-15 launch: http://web.archive.org/web/20080915103343/http://stackoverfl...

[1] 2019-06-26 old: http://web.archive.org/web/20190626143412/https://stackoverf...

[2] 2019-06-27 new: http://web.archive.org/web/20190627173410/https://stackoverf...

[3] footnote about "moderator" powers : a Stack Overflow user only needs 15 points to flag a post as "duplicate". And voting to "close" only requires 250 points.

Those thresholds are so low that SO is basically asking non-hardcore users to also exercise moderation powers. In other words, the "moderators" are not an elite cabal; they're your fellow users voting to flag questions as "duplicate". Why are my peers flagging questions as duplicate?!? I don't know. As the old saying goes, "maybe we've met the enemy and the enemy is us."

List of reputation scores required for various "moderation" privileges:

https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges

https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/privileges

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#187

Post by mark-r »

jordanpg wrote: post #102
ceejayoz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 90% of the time it is an XY problem, though. A couple clarifying questions and it turns out the OP really needed something much simpler. For example, people who insist they can’t use a Laravel package because of “performance”, but it turns out they just don’t know how the composer autoloader works.

The problem with this is that one of the best way to learn real lessons that stick in this line of work is to do it the hard way first. Being told you’re doing it the hard way and never learning firsthand why is no kind of lesson. These XY answers should contain a mention of Y, if relevant, skip the scolding, and answer the question.

So you'd be in favor of the question "What's the best regular expression for parsing HTML?"

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#188

Post by marcosdumay »

apostacy wrote: post #137
MrStonedOne wrote: post #29

This is natural selection at work. Stack Exchange has become a frustrating site to use. "Closed as duplicate: different and unrelated question" reopen further explaining the question and how its not related "Closed as duplicate: the first question that was immediately closed with no replies" OR! Google around, find SE link on issue, everybody is arguing about why the user wants to do it that why, convinces them to do…

One of the most frustrating things is when SE modes decide to deputize themselves on behalf of third parties, and try to enforce the laws of other countries or the intellectual property rights of decades old software. I've seen questions about how to bypass DRM on 20 year old software deleted. And why do they assume that the DMCA applies in other countries? What if you are asking how to build an unauthorized media pl…

> And why do they assume that the DMCA applies in other countries?

The company is on the US, so it would be illegal for them to keep the answer.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#189

Post by baud147258 »

Aeolun wrote: post #83
squeaky-clean wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I deleted my account when I had a notification that a 5 year old question of mine was edited to remove a "thanks for any help" at the end. This was after the blog post stating SE had an unfriendliness problem and they would stop doing things like that. Edit: Wow speaking of edits, am I reading this right that Jeff Atwood himself edited the title to remove the word "stealing"?

It seems he does not enjoy being called a thief?

Seems weird since he's not working at SE/SO since 2012:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/02/farewell-stack-exch...

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#190

Post by rusk »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #117
wokwokwok wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking the poster about X, and offering a solution Y' which will solve X should at least be attempted. No! Goodness me, why is this so difficult? It should not be attempted. That’s an arbitrary expression of your opinion on the poster. If the question can’t be solved in the way it’s asked let it die gracefully with a “no you can’t do it that why” and suck up the down votes when someone comes along and proves yes yo…

Well, I disagree despite the condescension (which isn't as disarming as you think, btw). Qs on a Q&A site become a sort of permanent record that other people stumble across, not just a wham bam thankya ma'am transaction that only the Q-asker sees. By revealing XY problems, a better service is provided for everyone who stumbles upon the Q. > Goodness me, why is this so difficult? Because not everyone agrees with you.…

I think you've illustrated the grandparent's point perfectly!

(in a pleasingly condescending manner too - I might add!)

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