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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#181

Post by _nedR »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #90
aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

Er, sorry, no. A public mailing list is not the correct venue for this discussion. Supposing as you do that society currently holds the wrong opinion on "does sex with minors constitute sexual assault?", the right answer is unlikely to be hashed out on a MIT list for CS activities. You also lend Stallman more weight than he deserves. His resignation will go unnoticed by all outside of our specific tech sphere and cer…

>but Stallman's behavior quite likely has held back the FSF for some time. He's an ideologue, not a leader.

On this last point, We have to agree to disagree. His firm and unwavering stance on many issues is a flag planted in the sand - "This is how things should be" (whether or not its practical). It is a point of reference which countless engineers, designer, entrepreneurs in tech (including in big companies in FAANG, etc.) have been influenced by (whether or not they were able to live upto his ideal) when building their systems and companies.

Everyday, living in the dystopian nightmare that the modern world (both real and virtual) is becoming, oftentimes enabled by OSS, 'Stallman was right' is something that keeps coming back. Its not just a glib meme.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#182

Post by oefrha »

aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

> It sets a precedent that will absolutely lead to self-censorship on a topic that really requires the disinfecting power of sunshine.

This incident doesn't change anything since much more chilling precedents have been set so many times before. RMS's position is way too extreme here, 99.9% of people would probably find it despicable. Meanwhile, lives (including at least one Nobel laureate's) have been destroyed for contentious, merely politically incorrect statements (or less). The ship has long sailed, RMS just didn't get the memo, maybe due to the peculiar way he uses the Internet.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#183

Post by [deleted] »

bbanyc wrote: post #77
iamnothere wrote: post #43

RMS was defending Minsky, awkwardly. As someone who has a history of social awkwardness, he should be forgiven for this. He's been a good steward of the FSF, which has doing important work in the service of free (read: non-backdoored) hardware lately. I know there are good people still at the FSF, but I can only hope they are as incorruptible and dogged as RMS. The way this attack came suddenly out of the depths make…

Minsky was a child molester. There's no way to defend that.

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#184

Post by Aloha »

AlexandrB wrote: post #138
Donald wrote: post #2

Context: RMS waded into the MIT Epstein scandal https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation.

"Waded in" is exactly the right phrase. RMS is neither a legal expert nor a moral philosopher. Commenting on the definition of assault and the nature of consent is outside his field of expertise and he should have just replied with a curt "I will not be attending". My personal takeaway is that it's important to understand the limitations of your own knowledge before succumbing to the urge to comment on something.

The man is known for not keeping his mouth shut when he sees something that bothers him. While I may not like his politics I agree that he should speak his mind.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#185

Post by utopianeyes »

Stallman is a revolutionary. In our dystopian times of surveillance capitalism, he has spent his life trying to fight for a utopian alternative. He is a hero and this reaction is completely unwarranted. The man is famously eccentric, but he is not evil. Posterity will not look kindly to these events.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#186

Post by dlp211 »

robocat wrote: post #168
dlp211 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

> He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein vic…

They should all be held accountable, sadly I do not wield such power to hold them to account.

That said, while the headlines are sensational, the fact is that RMS doesn't seem to understand what willing means or power dynamics.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#187

Post by mgalgs »

flukus wrote: post #159
leftyted wrote: post #147

I never much liked Richard Stallman. But he's a freethinker, and freethinkers necessarily exist outside the mainstream. So, despite not liking him, I also don't like this turn of events. It does seem arbitrary to me that the same sexual encounter is classified as rape in Arizona and not rape in Virginia. I suppose we have to draw that line somewhere arbitrary. But I wonder if it was a mistake to classify what is call…

> That said, to me, this doesn't seem like a hill worth dying on I don't think he saw it as a hill worth dying on, just a random hill he happened to be shot on. It's part of a random scattering of thoughts he makes public. Either way, I'm cancelling my FSF donations for caving into this witch hunt. It's long demise will be helmed by people that stand for nothing less they offend someone.

> Either way, I'm cancelling my FSF donations for caving into this witch hunt.

If the FSF experiences a drop in donations couldn't they interpret that as people trying to distance themselves with Stallman, and he's basically synonymous with the FSF?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#188

Post by nikdaheratik »

ezoe wrote: post #128

RMS's definition of pedophile doesn't include people who feel sexuall attraction on person who has puberty and is sexual maturity. I think that's a fair definition. He also argues that 17 years old has ability to consent. Since I'm from a country of consent age of 13 years, I agree. RMS don't encourage to violate the law, merely presenting the opinion. This opinion isn't blaming certain group like James Watson and hi…

Except your opinion is as an anonymous person on the Internet, while his was the director of the FSF and a trusted member of an academic community in a public forum. He has to be willing to think about the people and organisations he represents before he opens his mouth and makes them look bad. If he isn't willing to do that, then he should get sacked.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#189

Post by thaumaturgy »

aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

Bypassing for now the merits (or not) of his arguments, which will certainly get a deep philosophical treatment on a site where long comment threads are impossible to navigate and are really only active for a day or less anyway...

RMS's de facto role in the FSF has been spokesperson and public figure. This isn't the first time he's put his foot in his mouth [1][2][3] (figuratively or literally, according to some accounts). That's simply not a role to which he is suited, and that at least should be an argument most can agree with, if reluctantly.

We all make allowances for bad behavior from our favorite people, as long as that bad behavior isn't too repugnant or doesn't undermine the role we appreciate them for.

In RMS's case, at the very least his behavior keeps distracting people from the issues that the FSF was formed to address.

Let RMS return to roles for which he is better suited, and like Eric S Raymond's frequent bouts of insanity, we can all go back to appreciating that at least he manages to stay out of the news cycle.

[1]: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/10/10/1227229/richard-sta...

[2]: https://www.datamation.com/osrc/article.php/3830651/Richard-...

[3]: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#190

Post by will4274 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #49
aazaa wrote: post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

I too, am a fan of Stallman's accomplishments and I am sad that debate on this topic essentially can't happen. That said, I think Stallman's position really is fundamentally wrong and problematic. Legally, sex with underaged people is rape regardless of consent. Morally, that stance really is justified in the most common circumstance - when the non-underaged person has more power and experience than the underaged per…

> Legally, sex with underaged people is rape regardless of consent

Yes and no. With a 17 year old, in some jurisdictions, it's rape in such and such degree, but in other jurisdictions, it's a separate crime, and in other jurisdictions it's not a crime at all. I think the stronger argument is that it's illegal/immoral, rather than getting stuck on a single word.

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