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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#181

Post by gjulianm »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #134
mrtksn wrote: post #4

Can someone familiar with Libra speculate how a ban can be implemented? What comes to my mind is forbidding Facebook selling and processing it for EU users but beyond that, I am not sure how a "black market" could be prevented.

I'm not sure France and Germany fully get what they are trying to ban exactly. Most politicians only have a very rudimentary understanding of this stuff and probably lots of misconceptions. Libra is several things; most of which already exist in other forms in the EU. That makes it hard to block as a whole. At least not without also impacting a lot of other companies and people doing similar things because the law sh…

> without also impacting a lot of other companies and people doing similar things because the law should apply equally to all.

Other blockchains have not been blocked outright because they don't pose a threat and are developing slowly, so EU countries are working towards more or less sensible regulations. Facebook has far more power to drive adoption, so in order to avoid a situation where Facebook screws up (intentionally or unintentionally) they block the currency preemptively.

> quite a lot of EU citizens own and actively trade in bitcoin, eth, and a wide variety of other coins already

Relatively, not that many. Also, those currencies are being mostly used as investments, not currency.

> Why would a Libra coin be any different just because Facebook is behind it?

Precisely because Facebook is behind it: a foreign company, known to bypass and ignore regulations, with interests that do not necessarily align with those of the citizens, and with zero accountability.

> startups doing things with block chains and smart contract.

As long as it is not a global currency owned by private corporations it's ok.

> This would make it more similar to what e.g. Apple Pay and Android Pay enable

A different coin is very different from Apple and Android Pay. Payment systems are very different from coins.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#182

Post by justinzollars »

olivierduval wrote: post #91
justinzollars wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more financial freedom in the west. Facebook is right to allow its users the ability to protect their assets with Libra - backed by a basket of currencies. I'm very excited about this idea; of course Governments are not going to be comfortable with something they can not control. Whey they go to the printing press to pay for their deficits I certainly want the ability to protect my assets with a stronger curr…

Not sure to be more comfortable to rely more on the interests of a private US company that has already been proven un-ethical several times than to trust an elected (so revokable) governement ;-) But in Europe, we have more trust in our own governement and less in corporation than in the US, where it seem to be the opposite

I would rephrase this to say, in America we have less trust in government and more trust in the individual. The distinction is this: No one is forcing anyone to use Libra its your choice. : )

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#183

Post by a3n »

stefano wrote: post #171
a3n wrote: post #165

Isn't this restraint of trade by two businesses, France and Germany, against a third business, Facebook?

France and Germany are sovereign states, not businesses.

They claim to provide jobs, like any business. As for Libra, it's close to competition with "money," and they are restraining Libra from competing in the money business that the two countries are engaged in.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#184

Post by quotemstr »

dannyr wrote: post #90

I dislike Facebook but I kind of feel sorry for them now because any ambitious thing that they'll attempt will probably be blocked by governments now. Facebook and Zuckerberg deserves it though.

This situation is a consequence of squandering the company's goodwill. All the big social media companies spent years arrogantly declaring that they --- not the people, not governments, but people in quirky SFBA meeting rooms --- get to decide what you people see, what they don't see, what's true, what's false, what's offensive, what's anodyne, what's legitimate activism and what's dastardly propaganda.

As it turns out, this "we know best" stance ticks off a lot of people, some of whom run states.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#185

Post by Swizec »

aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

There’s a big difference between a local currency in a small region, or even a distributed crypto like bitcoin, and someone like Facebook. When Facebook starts pushing in a direction towards being an independent state-like power, you have to remember they have a “population” of 2.1 billion (daily active isers)

Facebook if it were a country would literally be bigger than China. Their political power is fast approaching that of a nation state, they can already impact elections, have shitloads of money, etc.

When they do anything that smells even remotely like moving towards sovereignty, yeah you bet countries are gonna take notice.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#186

Post by HashThis »

They say: > “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations”

They mean, "When the establishment rigs the economy by diluting the national currency, then the establishment must not let their citizens escape the damage".

People talk about a "rigged economy". Where I found in economics it really happens is 3% inflation that comes from constantly printing money. Low income and the middle class often don't get 3%+ yearly pay increases. When they accept a job, the economy is rigged against them by 3% inflation based loss in their pay level, every year (over and over). When people stay at jobs 10 years, 3% year-over-year devistates people.

1801 to 1899 had ~0% inflation when it was on the gold standard with sound money. 3% yearly inflation came after moving off of the gold standard and with printing money.

Printing money hurts workers.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#188

Post by bongobongo »

a3n wrote: post #183
stefano wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France and Germany are sovereign states, not businesses.

They claim to provide jobs, like any business. As for Libra, it's close to competition with "money," and they are restraining Libra from competing in the money business that the two countries are engaged in.

[flagged]

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#189

Post by mrtksn »

orbifold wrote: post #146
mrtksn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Libra becomes a thing, I would guess people will start selling things with it and Europeans will sell their services with Libra if Americans ell their services with Libra. Maybe in Germany, most people will stay away from it but in Bulgaria, Spain, Italy etc. - in places where people are more "relaxed" about the law enforcement will not miss business opportunities just because their rich neighbours can afford to m…

Just require people to provide a valid ID to Facebook in order to use it. Shouldn't be too hard to enfore, at least in the EU your phone number is tied to your passport.

>at least in the EU your phone number is tied to your passport

Not true. It depends on the country, in the UK you can buy SIM cards from wending machines that work straight out of the package and it's not he only country that does not require ID for SIM cards.

Anyway, even if your identity is tied to your Facebook account, what stops you from creating an American or a Filipino Facebook account? Phone number? You can buy a phone number online. You can also buy a verified Facebook account too.

Let's say that Facebook somehow starts operating as strict as a governmental body and checks everything, what stops you from buying Libra from an American or a Mexican? I haven't checked the details but this Libra thing doesn sound like Steam game money but like cryptocurrency, so they probably cannot do whatever they want just like that.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#190

Post by Barrin92 »

pjc50 wrote: post #62
aphextron wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. They exist entirely at the behest of their respective nation states' laws and regulations, and are completely subordinate to all official law enforcement and military forces. It's a flawed analogy. This would be tantamount to a private military company asserting their right to conduct foreign wars in the name of a…

> a private military company asserting their right to conduct foreign wars in the name of a subset of citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi (formerly known as Blackwater)?

You think Blackwater would fly in Germany or France?
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