Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#181

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #175

pjmlp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother with containers at all at that scale then? We keep on using plain old VMs, while watching everyone rush into containers fashion.

Deployment and transfer of environments between people. Using docker images means that we can take the thing that developer A built and that "runs on their machine" (without necessarily having that developer on hand) and have developer B easily launch it on their machine without having any dependency or isolation or reproducibility issues, and after making some trivial changes put it in a new, fresh production server…

We do that with VM images, WAR/EAR, RPM, NuGET, MSI packages.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#182

Post by dgoog » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

Cause it's useless and so is k8s. When the recession comes all these coding bootcamp ppl are going to have to go back to their barista jobs and we won't have to deal with docker or kubernetes bullshit.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#183

Post by dgoog » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

Mods I think it's time to start flagging kubernetes/docker posts. They are heavily marketing driven and come off as spam.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#184

Post by nurettin » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

elevenoh wrote: post #103

nurettin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you accept that all these tools were built for overworked and stressed people who don't really have the time to learn things deeply, it becomes much easier. In fact, most of the programming ecosystem and systems administration works like this. Try focusing on "what do I want?", get a superficial understanding on how the tool works, then try to apply that knowledge to your search engine query. For example: Say y…

This is how you end up with low-staying-value understanding built on shaky, fragile footing.

This is how I get air humidity experts commenting on approaches to IT problems.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#185

Post by orthoxerox » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

tofflos wrote: post #40

I jumped on the container bandwagon late and immediately fell in love with Docker. It built on my existing skill set so I was quickly able to get something up and running. Then I started tinkering with Docker Compose and for a while things were great. But after a while I started running into issues. Compose felt artificially crippled. No secrets? No health checks? Pushing me towards Docker Swarm? Eventually I just su…

My thoughts exactly. You cannot scale Docker. You can to a point, but there's always k8s looming ahead of you, saying, "sooner or later you will have to learn me instead". So most people learn it sooner than later to migrate to it while their workloads are still small. Of course, they often don't grow large enough for the benefits of k8s to kick in, but that's another story.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#186

Post by linuxhiker » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

lazyguy2 wrote: post #174

orbifold wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Versions of Solaris are open source aswell (Illumos)

Illumos and friends are effectively dead, except as hobbies for enthusiasts. Sun Microsystems, now Oracle, didn't like the reception Open Solaris got so they packed up their source code and went home. Which is really a shame. All 'True' Unixes are just closed source versions of what originally were open source operating systems. By taking copyright seriously and having the misconception that there is intrinsic value…

FreeBSD is a 'True' Unix and it is as open as they come.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#187

Post by username90 » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

mistahenry wrote: post #168

cheez wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you break fast and move things, Docker is invaluable. I have more than one product and something like Docker makes it tractable for a single person to support. Still, I run it all on one server using Docker so there is a medium :-)

How often are you spinning up new servers? In one to two hours, I can configure a production ready Debian server from base install with firewall rules, correct network interfaces, cron jobs, all dependencies and tooling, monitoring, Postgres, and my application server (either C epoll passed or Spring Boot) sitting behind an nginx proxy. I would consider myself neither a Sysadmin nor particularly fast at configuring L…

At my job I regularly spin up ~1000 servers to test some workloads or do some data processing. Would be a pain to do that manually, and spinning up 1000 servers isn't significantly more expensive than 100 or 10 but it is significantly faster.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#188

Post by gtaylor » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

Blackstone4 wrote: post #154

derefr wrote: post #150

K8s is a “datacenter operating system”, just like VMWare’s own VSphere, or Mesos, Mosix, etc. These solutions also compete for mindshare with mainframe solutions like IBM’s; and with “control planes” like OpenStack, Canonical’s Landscape, or (I think?) Microsoft’s System Center. This space is very, very profitable. None of this applies to Docker itself. Docker is “just” a virtualization technology. Sure, Docker Swarm…

Doesn't K8s typically run on virtual machines? In which case it's K8s + VMs to get to the “datacenter operating system” model?

It can run on VMs but doesn't have to. There are many bare metal k8s users out there doing some really neat things with the stack.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#189

Post by StreamBright » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #163

013a wrote: post #153

There's this prevalent false position that Kubernetes is successful because of Google. Yeah, Kubernetes initially learned a ton because of Borg and Google's deep investment into containers dating back a very long time. But, arguably, Kubernetes is successful because Google Let It Go. Its a true open source project, with governance by a wide number of industry advocates, underneath the Linux Foundation. By comparison,…

Parenthetically, Linux being an open source reincarnation of Solaris seems also an example, no?

Not really. Solaris is (was) from a ground up a corporate Unix environment designed to run mission critical applications. All the management interfaces and features reflected that. Zones were way ahead of the time, also pretty nice features.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#190

Post by SPascareli13 » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

smarterclayton wrote: post #148

brutus1213 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with your first paragraph. Regarding execution, I'm not sure what Docker could have done differently that did not lead to the outcome we have today. I don't think that playing nice with other opensource devs would have made a difference (as the article claims). Also .. the K was hardened at Google is BS. The ideas, maybe. But I am quite skeptical about the amount of prod internal google code went into e…

Kubernetes (from open sourcing to about 1.3 or 1.4) is a second system mostly written by senior engineers (from several companies) with deep experience in the problem domain and strong architectural guidance, and a willingness to stop at “just good enough” and then let stuff mature. Kube was mostly “done” from a design perspective in early 2015. Swarm was 2-3 people in the early days, without as much strong opinionat…

> I’m obviously biased - I was the first non googler to have commit on the repo.

How well was your PR received?