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In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

nytimes.com

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Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#181

Post by sukilot »

entropea wrote: post #92
koolba wrote: post #12

> “You’ve got a guy shooting heroin on the street, and the cop is supposed to say, ‘You O.K.?’” grumbled one law enforcement officer in Seattle. (In fact, an officer would typically confiscate the heroin, admonish the user and move on.) Some residents worry that when the city ignores its own laws on the books and tolerates people openly abusing narcotics, it takes a step toward incivility that will eventually result…

I've seen plenty of people shooting drugs in Seattle. So what? As long as they're not out attacking people or giving it to kids or something, I could care less what they do to themselves. Seattle has a different mindset, it always has, its just the new Amazon & Tech population is trying to change the culture.

I suppose you are also in favor of legalizing drunk driving, because the gross negligence of the matter is irrelevant?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#182

Post by allana »

downandout wrote: post #175
allana wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite how Seattle's policy of not locking people up to rot in prison is extremist. You had a viable argument right up until that point! Edit: Thanks for the bot downvotes! Going from +2 to -1 in the span of a minute on two separate comments is a bit of a red flag :P

I downvoted you, and I’m pretty sure I’m not a bot. I did so because failing to lock up people that commit serious crimes is prima facie extremist - no citation is necessary.

You were ratelimited by @dang for acting poorly, not surprisingly your continuing to act against the sites policy for downvoting.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#183

Post by DanBC »

rayiner wrote: post #149
just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

It's interesting people always point to Portugal to support the idea that decriminalization is the way to address substance abuse. But compare Sweden, which has similar levels of drug dependency to Portugal, but takes a "zero tolerance" approach to drug use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Sweden . While Sweden does include treatment as part of its drug policy, that is a complement to, not replacement fo…

> According to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA), in 2005, the rate of drug-related deaths per capita in Sweden was more than twice that of the Netherlands and there were more persons addicted to severe narcotics ("heavy drugs") than in other countries

It doesn't seem to be working that well, does it?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#184

Post by sukilot »

koolba wrote: post #87
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? ----------------- Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. Authoritarianism isn't a healing modality.

> Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. > If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? Ha! If offending people was illegal I'd have been in prison a long time ago. > Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. I'm not forcing my…

You think that junkies are higher income than the people who are forced to see them?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#185

Post by paggle »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #143
paggle wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need low cost low security jails for people who commit property crimes. Basically just wall off a few square miles and throw them in there left to their own devices.

Many prisons in central and South America are run like this: the prisoners are thrown into a contained environment without guards otherwise, the prisoners themselves (usually visit a gangs) organize the prison economy and otherwise keep the peace (bar for some occasional riots).

That’s not good because it gives the leaders a quality of life that they shouldn’t be able to enjoy.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#186

Post by downandout »

allana wrote: post #182
downandout wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downvoted you, and I’m pretty sure I’m not a bot. I did so because failing to lock up people that commit serious crimes is prima facie extremist - no citation is necessary.

You were ratelimited by @dang for acting poorly, not surprisingly your continuing to act against the sites policy for downvoting.

Downvoting is against the site’s policy? Why does the downvote button exist then?

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#187

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

taurath wrote: post #4

Interesting take on the situation - one key difference is I don’t feel any less safe now than 10 years ago walking around. I DO see more “open” use, and people walking around obviously on something, especially by the homeless (which makes sense even if they’re not using at a higher level). I don’t see the social services much though. IMO they could use more visibility. The prevailing opinion seems like we do “nothing…

>I don’t feel any less safe now than 10 years ago walking around

As someone who has trained and trained with police... I can tell you those words are dangerous. So many people who gets their lives upturned by some mostly preventable event has used those words.

Pay attention, no matter where you live. Personally if people are shooting up near me and the police are selectively enforcing the law, “feel safe” isn’t going to be in my vocabulary, but I don’t know you or what your situation is. That’s just my view from being aware of how fast things can go bad.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#188

Post by ianai »

xenocyon wrote: post #173
just_lurkin wrote: post #17

The reporters designation of "figured out" seems to stem more from the fact that the solution fits his own view than any actual real evidence. There is mention of the difficulties such lax policies has brought to the city, but they are waved away as being "growing pains" toward a new utopia. I can't say, living here, that I feel that the problem is solved. I view the needles outside my apartment as evidence to the co…

At least part of the cause of the visible squalor we see in Seattle is that the tough-on-crime crowd has consistently opposed safe injection, harm reduction, trash pickup, housing-first, and other evidence-based policies in favor of expensive, inhumane, and pointless measures like sweeps and incarceration. Any measure the city government takes that is not overtly cruel gets slammed as coddling the homeless or "attrac…

“some would prefer to see the police cart drug users off to jail to get them out of the way” (article)

It seems like creating housing projects for these people would be cheaper and more beneficial to society than increasing the prison population. I’d like to see something like dorms with shared restrooms, cafeterias, and such facilities. It’d create work and demand locally while keeping the streets clean.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#189

Post by cronix »

They're living in tents surrounded by rats, garbage, raw sewage and chasing away residents and business. Are these cities gaining taxpayers and businesses, or losing them? How happy are the residents of these cities with these conditions who pay for it all? You're very compassionate allowing people to decay on the streets. Congrats on your "win." What you won, I don't know. I see more misery than ever before. At least they can get their drugs without consequence now. I'm sure they're happy for that while they waste away in front of our eyes. At least you can say you were acting in a compassionate way, even while the results are completely contrary. Brownie points for you.

Re: In effect, Seattle is decriminalizing the use of hard drugs

#190

Post by allana »

sbierwagen wrote: post #166
allana wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite how Seattle's policy of not locking people up to rot in prison is extremist. You had a viable argument right up until that point! Edit: Thanks for the bot downvotes! Going from +2 to -1 in the span of a minute on two separate comments is a bit of a red flag :P

Adding a comment complaining about being downvoted tends to invite more downvotes from unrelated posters.

The timing is just so interesting though!

Two of my comments saw 3 downvotes in the span of a minute, the latter of which was much further down than this comment.

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