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Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

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Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#181

Post by hker »

FabHK wrote: post #165
0898 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read my post instead of downvoting, I'm not calling for the end of Western democracy. I'm just curious whether people who are in favour of the One Party system use arguments or metaphors like these.

Yes, this argument has been made. China apologists frequently cite the higher efficiency of the one party system compared to democracies hampered by due process. During the Roman Republic, in time of crisis a dictator could be installed (for a 6 month period) to "sort things out". So, the tradeoff between accountability and efficacy has been around for a while.

> China apologists frequently cite the higher efficiency of the one party system compared to democracies hampered by due process.

In fact, China cannot even claim superiority in terms of economic growth, because their per capita GDP grows much slower than Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for the same period during high growth (see the graph in [1]).

Hence the argument for higher efficiency is in fact misplaced, mostly based on her accumulated power largely due to huge population. But her population is aging quickly, and so will her productivity and growth.

[1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-state-driven-growth-mode...

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#182

Post by o_nate »

phry wrote: post #145
nabla9 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

Gandhi was hardly the sole arbiter of Indian resistance. In fact their success in fighting colonial rule was dependent on the reality that there were people like Bhagat Singh who were willing to and did use militant tactics.

OTM. The history of the Indian independence movement is a lot more complicated than the simple image of Ghandi and non-violence that most people receive through popular culture.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#183

Post by MadSudaca »

PauloManrique wrote: post #99
MadSudaca wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to t…

1) it's false Venezuela disarmed people; 2) to say armed people can stop dictators, it's a totally braindead assumption. Please, go understand how the world works.

Of course it's false. You still see lots of armed people, usually criminal gangs, both regime sponsored and independent. However, legally they were prohibited several years ago, I remember this. On your second point, please read the other comments on the thread spawned by my comment, and you'll see why your point is false.

I don't claim to know how the world works, but I've seen and learned enough to understand the importance violence has in our society. In most developed nations we're sheltered from it because its application has been made incredibly efficient. However, we shouldn't be fooled to believe that it doesn't play an important role in maintaining our societies.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#184

Post by homonculus1 »

dayofthedaleks wrote: post #123
gruez wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When was the last time a law or policy was successfully fought and turned around in the U.S.? Prohibition Civil rights act Roe v Wade Gay marriage Marijuana legalization

None of those fights had a Second Amendment angle, except possibly the Black Panthers' demonstrations carrying rifles. Those events instead resulted in California gun control laws being created more than contributing to the Civil Rights Act's passage.

Which is evidence that the government really does start to scared when armed citizens speak up for their rights.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#185

Post by ISL »

L_226 wrote: post #112
keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

HK police have already uncovered a stash of TATP stockpiled by "protesters" - https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/20/asia/hong-kong-explosives...

From afar, it is unclear whether it was uncovered or planted. Both make logical sense.

In a place where weapons are banned, it can make sense to construct them. In a time of effective peaceful protest, it can make sense to an authoritarian government to attempt to justify a crackdown.

My heart is with those protesting in Hong Kong: 'Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...'

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#186

Post by nitins »

modi15 wrote: post #82

Seems to me this is Tiananmen part 2 unfolding before our eyes. And doesnt look like anyone will come to Hongkongs help. Hoping India will step up and do something. Seems unlikely though.

India isn't strong enough to take on China.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#187

Post by khc »

shuzheng407 wrote: post #83

you need to know the whole chain of events to understand what happened at Yuen Long last night. also you need to know the unique identity of Yuen Long in order to comprehend the situation. Yuen Long is a village of people from several big family names, they are all relatives in a way. have their own system and rules and really hate outsiders telling them what to do. in history, they fought with British, fought with J…

Admittedly I left HK 20 years ago, but even then Yuen Long had not been "a village of people from several big family" long before I left. They do have stronger mainland tie, but I see that as mainly because the cost of living is lower in that region and so attract more immigrants (just like Chinatown in Western countries).

I don't doubt that the situation is complex, but lets get the facts straight.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#188

Post by Merrill »

shuzheng407 wrote: post #173
Merrill wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the population of the New Territories North region less sympathetic with the pro-democracy protesters than Hong Kong Island and Kowloon? They appear to have commercial ties to Shenzhen across the border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Yuen_Long_protest

Yes, but not Shenzhen, I would say , most of them are of a same ethnic called 'Ke Jia', which take a big proportion of population in Cantonese and Fujian area, and Taiwan. they formed a very tight connection as one whole rural community, no matter where they live. they remain like that for over a thousand years. that is their tradition.when i said tight, it means if you were a kejia, you could seek help in UK or US e…

So also known in English as Hakka. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_people#Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_Chinese#Etymology

Historic genocidal wars are probably still remembered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punti-Hakka_Clan_Wars

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#189

Post by ISL »

koheripbal wrote: post #161
asdff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time people took the beating and laid down in China, thousands died and the event was erased from public memory.

Yeah, I think people forget that the majority of those who died in Tienanmen were non-violent.

Can you provide a reference for such a statement? It is, as stated, counter to my recollection.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#190

Post by logfromblammo »

nabla9 wrote: post #74
keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

That only works against a semi-principled oppressor. Won't work in China; won't work in the current USA. The British were already weary of the overwhelming India-ness of India, and so when confronted with the reality that India was going to do India no matter who was nominally in charge, they decided to just let India do India all over itself, and not be responsible for it any more.

China (PRC), on the other hand, loves nothing more than to do China everywhere China is, or was, or will be. They can't stand it when somewhere that should be China isn't doing China hard enough. So when Hong Kong goes around saying "a little less China, please; we'd like to still be a little Hong Kong" then China retorts "how dare you not be all-the-way China!" They will gleefully beat more China into Hong Kong if given a flimsy, contrived excuse to do so. It's the same as it was in Tibet, except Tibet did not have the leverage of being so important to international trade. China very much wants to erase the historic embarrassment it suffered from the UK in the Opium Wars, and as long as Hong Kong doesn't want to be more Chinese, the wound stays open. Macau isn't facing the same mainland attitudes, probably because it wasn't taken by force.

But on the other hand, violent resistance definitely won't work, either. China won't kill everyone, but they will kill, imprison, or hospitalize enough people that the others learn what kinds of things can get you vanished, erased, or exampled.

The only winning strategy against China in Hong Kong/Macau is to get out, and with one's money, if possible. Expand businesses into Vietnam, Taiwan, Thailand, Cambodia, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and/or Australia, de-emphasize the Hong Kong facilities, and move people and households elsewhere. And that works fine for China, too. It makes Hong Kong more PRC-Chinese at the same time it is making other places more ethnically-Chinese, and they get to keep all the capital that was left behind.

Anecdotally, everyone I know from Hong Kong already moved to Vancouver.

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