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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

bbc.com

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#181

Post by pteredactyl »

educationdata wrote: post #165
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Anybody realize how pathetic it is to have this comment on the top on this website?

"I'm from the area so I'm an expert. Here's a circular argument. Hopefully you don't notice but take my point to heart because I'm an expert. Oh by the way, anyone who disagrees with me is pretentious."

Commenter must be a Google employee.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#182

Post by miles »

dirtyid wrote: post #180
gurkendoktor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

>bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.

>> Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan

> Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders.

Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599

Giving In to China, U.S. Airlines Drop Taiwan (in Name at Least) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/25/business/taiwan-american-...

Airlines switching to ‘Taiwan, China’ https://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/21... Associated Press found 20 carriers, including Air Canada, British Airways and Lufthansa, that now refer to Taiwan, the self-ruled island that Beijing considers Chinese territory, as a part of China on their global websites.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#183

Post by pteredactyl »

peteretep wrote: post #41

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

Unfortunately it seems both countries (or large entities therein: US Politicians, Google, US Media, etc.) are in fact, allied, whether aware or not, with the Communist Party of China.

Seems we'd best be served to first collectively realize this. Then do as you suggest.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#184

Post by justicezyx »

AlexandrB wrote: post #174
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Much of Google’s revenue comes from the ability to track individual users. A Chinese Google Search would not be any more censored than Baidu, but it may be a much richer source of information for Chinese law enforcement agencies.

Well, it does help people reduce the chance of victimized by Baidu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#185

Post by tempguy9999 »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #143
khc wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing this to slavery is silly. This is more like when the entire country is enslaved, and you move to the country. The analogy breaks down because the fact that you may or may not have slaves doesn't change the supply and demand of the slaves. When you said all information is filtered by the government, that shows your ignorance of how things work in China. The rest are not worth responding to.

> that shows your ignorance of how things work in China Then please educate us. I'd like to know the limits of china's censorship.

Again, I request that you explain this. As a westerner my crude understanding may be skewed by biased presentation I read about.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#186

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

skj wrote: post #35
phoe-krk wrote: post #6

I am accepting bets on when the project will be terminated again in the future. Bitcoin only. Tether only in high amounts.

How could someone collect? Your window seems open-ended.

There is a service called "OneHash" I think... where impartial 3rd Parties can be the judge of bets like these for a small fee on the transaction.

I might be confused on the name, and can't look up Crypto stuff at work. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#187

Post by pteredactyl »

HALtheWise wrote: post #108
kyrra wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the arguments at the time when dragonfly was leaked, it was brought up that there is censorship, though in a different form, already in the EU. Be it right to be forgotten, or filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU. Then the US and EU both have censorship around things protected by law. So you can sue people to take down slanderous material, or material tha…

You're getting a lot of flack for this comment, but I think it's a reasonable way of looking at the problem. In the United States, we have strong cultural conceptions about what are acceptable reasons for the government and companies to forcably suppress information (copyright violations, "terrorist" content, white supremacy, child pornography) and what aren't (political dissidence, social stability, insults, most ot…

Self-governed sovereignty. You and the American entities mentioned believe this. And seek to protect it. Including trademark violators, for example (who threaten Apple's 'kingdom' so to speak).

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#188

Post by inferiorhuman »

dirtyid wrote: post #175
inferiorhuman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and politic…

The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?

The question is not whether they would do the same - but whether they would the practice to other regions. Did Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel?

Well AOL, Skype, and Nortel don't really exist as independent entities anymore. Microsoft already censors Skype globally (for profanity) the last I checked. Unfortunately censorship in other countries outside of China doesn't seem to get as much attention, but none of those tinpot dictatorship seem to have any trouble getting their hands on censorship technology from the west.

That Google already went down the road of developing a censorship platform with Dragonfly reveals their willingness to aid in government censorship.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#189

Post by yourbandsucks »

pteredactyl wrote: post #178
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

I don't follow. If Google helps entities that censor, they censor, or at least are complicit in some way. Further, there's the whole 'national security' angle. Whether real or imagined, some people don't like the idea of US entities helping foreign entities gain a competitive advantage. Not sure how pointing to a feigned moral superiority of 'those who stick their noses up' helps your argument either.

In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google.

I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#190

Post by themacguffinman »

lvmii wrote: post #59
noelsusman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing US and EU residents to take a significant economic hit in the name of standing on principle against censorship that doesn't affect them.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

I'd personally support the US pressuring the EU on its lack of free speech, but it still isn't comparable to the need for pressure on China as EU laws still allow for much freer speech in practice.
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