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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#181

Post by praptak »

bko wrote: post #102
ripdog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits…

> All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits to pay for the services which allowed the profit to be made. So any taxation is justified? > It's not arbitrary to expect businesses to pay for services they benefit from. Any digital company with revenue of more than €750m ($850m; £670m) - of which at least €25m is generated in France - would be s…

> So any taxation is justified?

A corp will raise prices to whatever level the market will bear. Why shouldn't a society do the same with taxes?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#182

Post by gamblor956 »

ezoe wrote: post #119

What happened to a company who has no physical presence in France refuse to pay the tax on the ground that France has no jurisdiction upon them? Ordering French ISPs to block the web service of that company thereby breaking the fundamental human right of freedom of speech and no censorship.

Simple.

France informs their customers that they need to withhold part of or even all of their payments to said company under penalty of criminal sanction. Customers comply, non-French company receives less money.

Non-French company then has 2 choices: accept defeat and pay the French tax, or cut the French customers and accept less revenue.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#183

Post by 1gn1t10n »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #153
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What public resources did Amazon, a US company, use from France?" off the top of my head, I'm sure there are lots more: - a large set of well-off consumers who got there because of free public education, parental supports, et cetera - a safe society so drop shipping is possible - roads & infrastructure for shipping - a justice system that protects Amazon from cheating buyers and sellers - a stable, accepted currency…

>- roads & infrastructure for shipping Their whole point was that the shipper would pay taxes. Which they do. This applies to most of your points as well, they do get taxed on their warehouses. What I find most comical about all this is there's already a 20% VAT on everything Amazon sells there. They do pay taxes already, France simply wants more, and this tax is written in a way where it will have a much larger effe…

As far as I understand VAT's role in the economy, the Value Added Tax is offset to the last link of a value-adding chain: the consumer.

This creates the incentive of further adding value to a product/service and thus creating more economic output.

Amazon may be paying other taxes, but VAT is paid by the consumer.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#184

Post by weberc2 »

99052882514569 wrote: post #55
bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

>I disagree with that framework but applying taxes arbitrarily hardly seems fair or the best way to raise revenue. There's nothing arbitrary here, in fact they're attempting to partially address a perverse incentive to take all your business online and do some jurisdiction arbitrage to minimize corporate taxes. This gives you an unfair advantage over, say, a brick-and-mortar store or a physical ad agency in Paris tha…

I'm trying to follow the argument in good faith, so bear with me...

> This gives you an unfair advantage over, say, a brick-and-mortar store or a physical ad agency in Paris that's trying to compete online.

Are you sure it's "an unfair advantage" and not just "an advantage"? Doesn't your position presume that the brick-and-mortar business model deserves special protection? If so, why? If not, what then is unfair about "jurisdiction arbitrage".

> Taxes are not just about revenue, they are often about changing incentives

What is the implied incentive in this case? It seems like it's just incentivizing a brick and mortar business model, but it's not clear why this is inherently virtuous.

> This addresses an additional edge Amazon has versus local retailers.

Doesn't this all point to a fundamental problem with "corporate tax"? Wouldn't it be better (fairer) to reduce or remove corporate tax and raise sales tax or similar, such that it doesn't matter whether the business has a presence in the country in question? I'm not very knowledgable about the topic, so I'm hoping someone can set me straight.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#185

Post by TearsInTheRain »

ElKrist wrote: post #21

The US administration is presenting the new tax as if it was specifically targeted to US companies because of their origin. Like a tariff. It is not the case at all. Yes the biggest tech giants that do not pay enough tax are mostly from the US (also other companies from other countries are affected too) But it is not because they are from the US that this new tax is created. It is simply because they don't pay enough…

How much tax is enough tax?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#186

Post by vonmoltke »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #162
ars wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the question. why is France charging tax to these particular companies? As opposed to all companies? Your answer makes no distinction between them so doesn't actually answer the question.

that's the point the French are bringing up. French companies pay French taxes. Internet companies serve French markets, take French money, but pay taxes elsewhere, and often they pay no taxes because they can shop around to find a friendly tax haven that doesn't charge them taxes. This is only possible because internet. So, they're imposing a tax on companies that serve French customers via the internet but aren't b…

Why isn't the solution then to force all companies doing business in France to register with the French government and pay taxes on the portion of revenues derived from France?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#187

Post by globuous »

bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

I think it comes down to economic warfare. The us abuses it with its allies and thats just retaliation.

Herés a video in french explaining it better than i can: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dejeVuL9-7c

Maybe YT knows how to translate live ? (Nlp + gtranslate ?)

My point is: in order to understand this chess move (and judge for yourself whether its a smart one or not), you have to understand the previous moves on the board (from « allies » and « ennemies », or just « economic partners » as de gaulle would say).

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#188

Post by ElFitz »

weberc2 wrote: post #159
ripdog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits…

> Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? Ignoring for a moment that this rationale can support any tax policy at all (including 100% tax rates)... This holds…

> This holds for all businesses, not just large tech companies. So why is the tax focused on the latter?

Because they are those who could and had the resources (legal and financial teams) to avoid said taxes, until now, and they happily did so (ie billing through Luxembourg or Irish post boxes). Not that I'd condemn it. Countries and laws were just to slow in catching up.

Most other businesses couldn't (and still can't) go around playing with loopholes because they don't have the means to and most of their goods are, well... physical.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#190

Post by friedman23 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #142
50656E6973 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? By showing ads. Ads only need eyeballs to make money.

Ads don't make money from thin air; someone pays for those ads. Google accesses a market of French advertisers, and that market exists because of French government. (Also, arguably, French eyeballs are a resource belonging to France, which Google exploits.)

> Google accesses a market of French advertisers, and that market exists because of French government.

Why don't you try justifying that one? Because I posit that if the French government didn't exist the market would exist anyway.

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