Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#181

Post by nathanvanfleet » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Bit surprised by at least your first two points.

1. Tech is not a space where training can help improve worker's quality? Or is it just something that people are expected to do on their own and people who don't suffer?

2. You might be surprised to learn about the number of contractors in tech.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#182

Post by stefan_ » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

Imagine not getting paid overtime but arguing online how unions in tech are bad (while doing overtime).

Sometimes HN is a caricature.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#183

Post by biztos » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #31

dawhizkid wrote: post #8

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

My understanding is that some leave to get out of shitty working conditions, and many others leave because switching jobs every 2-3 years is the most reliable way to increase your salary.

Pretty easy to see how unions could address both of those issues. This might not work in favor of aggressively job-hopping careerists, but would probably work for everyone else in the International Brotherhood of Codeslingers.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#184

Post by chupa-chups » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #182

Imagine not getting paid overtime but arguing online how unions in tech are bad (while doing overtime). Sometimes HN is a caricature.

n-gate.com :)

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#185

Post by ericd » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

dlkf wrote: post #109

ahelwer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that unions exist only to get a larger slice of the static profits pie is, itself, a zero-sum view :) When employees feel represented and empowered, when we have real ownership in the company - not just a few thousand $ in stock grants while billions are spent on dividends/stock buybacks, but an actual seat at the table where decision are made - then we want the company to succeed. We will work harder and be…

Do you have any supporting examples?

IIRC many (most? all?) German companies have labor representation on the board of directors.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#186

Post by kiliantics » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #178

kiliantics wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we agree that everyone needs more vacations? Too many voters are swayed by the talking points of the wealthy who tend to have a lot of influence in the media we consume. The counterargument can even be phrased in ways that are made to look like it supports the "little guy" rather than the oligarchs that are promoting the message, for example: "More paid vacation means small businesses will have more difficulty…

> How do we agree that everyone needs more vacations? Certainly not at the major tech employer level with their tech workers? A software engineer can already work at any of these and get vacations benefit similar to what's law in those European cities, and that's not doing any movement at the government level. And my non-tech colleagues at the same companies have the same benefits for the most part (commission sales…

In the past, these things happened on a scale larger than the union itself, but in which the union took part. Things like the eight-hour day were achieved by movements led by coalitions of multiple unions. Having a powerful tech union that supports such movements would make it significantly more likely that we could get legislation for more progressive reforms passed.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#187

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

themacguffinman wrote: post #141

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

Your points make sense, but it stands in contrast to unions of other industries like voice acting (SAG-AFTRA) where voice actors/actresses can vary a lot in quality/desirability and aren't exactly a commodity. I actually honestly don't know how voice acting unions could be successful.

By getting the highest quality people into the union, setting minimum rates for union talent, and throwing people out of the union who work for people who pay lower rates (to them or anyone else.) Offer auxiliary services like health insurance, pensions, and anything else that can be gotten at a group rate at cost to your members. Organize training in the profession to your members, and facilitate networking between members. Form mutual relationships with other unions to support each other in times of conflict with bosses.

Unions are best when practitioners in a field vary a lot in quality and desirability. When anybody can be quickly trained to do work, unions have to rely on physical means to help their members. That's why Taylorism/Fordism destroyed the unions.

Tech is an ideal place for unions skillwise, the problem is how easily offshorable the work is. A tech union would have to be a world union.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#188

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #156

ap3 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions & guilds also serve to keep other workers out There are laws that work has to be assigned to union shops, etc

That's not really a function of the union itself, that's a function of an abusable political system. The other side of the same coin is, for example, ISP local monopoly laws.

It's more a function of a state or municipality's negotiation with a particular union, and can be a rational decision for a municipality to make. The choice is between hiring only union people, or not being able to hire any union people.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#189

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

ttcbj wrote: post #73

My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech: * Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality. * Shifting workforce: Constructi…

I think the real point of value for a programmer union would be figuring out the logistics of setting up a really good retirement plan that works between multiple employers. This is one place where individuals on their own cannot effectively negotiate - they have to take whatever retirement plan prospective employers offer, and if they work at small companies you're just happy to get offered something reasonable, rather than something optimized.

If there was a programmer's union that let you join as a union employee, you could take salary concessions for the union-mandated retirement plan contributions, and have both parties wind up ahead simply on tax-efficiency metrics. $110k salary and $100k salary + $10k retirement plan contribution cost the exact same to the company, but the latter has a lower overall tax burden on the employee.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#190

Post by javagram » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 10:34 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #21

javagram wrote: post #10

“In other cases, highly compensated engineers may see themselves as independent operators who have plenty of leverage on their own and thus do not need to join a union effort.” This is definitely my feeling. When I can just open up LinkedIn and browse all the unsolicited interview requests I get, I don’t end up feeling like I really need a union to protect my current job - I can always just leave and go somewhere els…

I can always just leave and go somewhere else if I’m unhappy. You think you can, and hopefully you actually can, but your employer might have other ideas... https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po... I'll expand on that slightly - the point is that employers are not beyond illegally getting together to restrict our access to alternative jobs. While it feels like we can just get a new role with a…

Yeah, that was pretty terrible. Good news is that the government found it out and put a stop to it.