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The Toyota Way

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Re: The Toyota Way

#181

Post by bitwize »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #178
bitwize wrote: post #84

In the 1960s, my father was a manufacturing engineer for BigTechFirm (this was back when BigTechFirms built actual stuff, rather than trafficking in webshit). On the shop floor, there were A, B, and C workers on a line in descending order of skill level required and roughly ascending order of available workers. It was a true assembly line model. I believe the A and B workers had more variety to their work but the C w…

What is webshit? It seems like you are trying to say that you don’t think web developers build anything worthwhile, but I’m hoping there’s a less insulting interpretation of your comment?

Television was developed with the intent of bringing culture, like Shakespeare to the masses -- but it was more profitable to present cheap-to-make, lowest-common-denominator entertainment and an increasing number of ads. Similarly, the Web was supposed to be a global information resource for scientific papers and other human knowledge, but the companies that dominate the Web today have turned it into television that watches back.

Somewhere there are Web developers adding real value. Sometimes I like to think I'm one of them. But that's not the LOB of the big players.

Re: The Toyota Way

#182

Post by [deleted] »

bitwize wrote: post #181
erikpukinskis wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is webshit? It seems like you are trying to say that you don’t think web developers build anything worthwhile, but I’m hoping there’s a less insulting interpretation of your comment?

Television was developed with the intent of bringing culture, like Shakespeare to the masses -- but it was more profitable to present cheap-to-make, lowest-common-denominator entertainment and an increasing number of ads. Similarly, the Web was supposed to be a global information resource for scientific papers and other human knowledge, but the companies that dominate the Web today have turned it into television that…

[deleted]

Re: The Toyota Way

#183

Post by Sherl »

nradov wrote: post #73
lemax wrote: post #53

"The Machine That Changed the World" is a wonderful title on this. Kiichiro Toyoda invented the lean production model after coming to the states and studying the inefficiencies of the assembly lines of Ford. This was a process dependent on modularizing every manufacturing component due to a demand for the Toyota company to serve a market with a need for an immense variety of vehicles, and giving teams ownership of th…

Ironically Toyota now has longer product lives than many other mainstream manufacturers. The Camry and Corolla are on roughly 6 year product lifecycles. The 4Runner has barely changed in 10 years.

The fact is each line setup would involve several modifications in supply chain. Processes, Assembly, Paint Shop and not to say the engineering required beneath it. Reliability engineering often takes six months to an year to emulate a decade worth of conditions. You don't want to rush something to market and break it and apparently cars are hazardous if it fails in operation which mayn't be applicable to mobile phones.

Re: The Toyota Way

#184

Post by nihonde »

m463 wrote: post #151
novaleaf wrote: post #102

Whenever I see articles like this, I like to remind people that a great production system doesn't make a company more honest or accountable. Unintended acceleration flaw in Toyota models around 2005 to 2011, due to firmware bugs: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende... Great for USA customers. They were made whole. I personally was driving a 2011 Toyota minivan in Thailand in 2013 when I suffe…

I also wonder about research direction, such as the hydrogen fuel cell mirai, which doesn't seem practical. (of course it could be that when they started down that path, it was not clear that battery electric vehicles were practical either)

Mirai is a beachhead for applications that can’t tolerate charge times. Hydrogen can be transported and stored and is considered a viable alternative for industrial applications on an island nation that is currently dependent on the Middle East for oil. So of course the Japanese government created incentives for adoption and innovation. Also, until Tesla, Americans generally showed zero interest in non-hybrid electric vehicles. For all we know, fuel cells could have a brighter future than it appears they do right now.

Re: The Toyota Way

#185

Post by nihonde »

ak217 wrote: post #175
parliament32 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a standstill yes -- the car is slipping the torque converter between disengaged (neutral, idle in a standstill) and first (to actually get going). Exactly the same as a manual, to get moving from a standstill you have to slip the clutch somewhat, and yes your RPMs will go up. But that doesn't apply when the car is already in gear and in motion. In both an auto and a manual, if you're applying enough brake to pre…

> he was probably hitting the gas and accelerating. ...Or the car was actuating the throttle as if he was hitting the gas, a.k.a. unintended acceleration. I see a lot of people like you in this thread and elsewhere dismissing unintended acceleration experiences. Before you continue to do so, I would urge you to read the NASA report on the Toyota unintended acceleration case and related documents ( https://www.nhtsa.g…

There is a long history of American automakers and their cohorts in the media and elsewhere who use these scandals to scare buyers away from Japanese makes. See what they did to Suzuki with the Jimny in the eighties for the most egregious example. I watched this “scandal” closely at the time, and it smelled like a rat all along. Fortunately, these tactics are ineffective, but there will always be anecdotal persistence on discussion threads like this. Nothing in any credible source materials proved this issue. Settling lawsuits is not an admission of guilt; it’s Japan Inc rolling their eyes, pulling out their pocket books, and making a pragmatic cost/benefit analysis. The lengths to which the case for the unintended acceleration flaw went is proof enough of what their aims were. If you want a counterpoint to the study you cited, here’s one from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration when American media and automakers pulled the same stunt to slander German makers in the 1980s: https://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/1989%20NHTSA%...

Re: The Toyota Way

#186

Post by tastygreenapple »

ak217 wrote: post #175
parliament32 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a standstill yes -- the car is slipping the torque converter between disengaged (neutral, idle in a standstill) and first (to actually get going). Exactly the same as a manual, to get moving from a standstill you have to slip the clutch somewhat, and yes your RPMs will go up. But that doesn't apply when the car is already in gear and in motion. In both an auto and a manual, if you're applying enough brake to pre…

> he was probably hitting the gas and accelerating. ...Or the car was actuating the throttle as if he was hitting the gas, a.k.a. unintended acceleration. I see a lot of people like you in this thread and elsewhere dismissing unintended acceleration experiences. Before you continue to do so, I would urge you to read the NASA report on the Toyota unintended acceleration case and related documents ( https://www.nhtsa.g…

Just to flag - the US Government (which operates NASA) was a major stakeholder in GM and Chrysler, major competitors of Toyota, when they investigated Toyota.

Re: The Toyota Way

#187

Post by m463 »

nihonde wrote: post #184
m463 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder about research direction, such as the hydrogen fuel cell mirai, which doesn't seem practical. (of course it could be that when they started down that path, it was not clear that battery electric vehicles were practical either)

Mirai is a beachhead for applications that can’t tolerate charge times. Hydrogen can be transported and stored and is considered a viable alternative for industrial applications on an island nation that is currently dependent on the Middle East for oil. So of course the Japanese government created incentives for adoption and innovation. Also, until Tesla, Americans generally showed zero interest in non-hybrid electri…

Yes, hindsight is 20/20. And it is research, which can sometimes not pan out, and sometimes shift back in 20 years.

Re: The Toyota Way

#188

Post by throw0101a »

hinkley wrote: post #126
throw0101a wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kiichiro Toyoda invented the lean production model after coming to the states and studying the inefficiencies of the assembly lines of Ford. See also Deming on quality control: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Work_in_Japa...

As I’ve heard it, Deming was having trouble getting people to listen to him on this side of the pond, but the Japanese were all too happy to listen to his ideas. There also seems to be a running disagreement about whether Mr Toyoda or Taiichi Ohno is responsible for the Toyota system. To wit, the intro to Ohno’s Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiichi_Ohno

> As I’ve heard it, Deming was having trouble getting people to listen to him

Ben Rockwood, then at Joyent, gave the keynote at LISA '11 on DevOps that touches on Deming and quality (45m45s):

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KpPBnEtRj4

Re: The Toyota Way

#189

Post by bagbobillins »

parliament32 wrote: post #163
bagbobillins wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. In a car with an automatic transmission, the engine RPM is related to the drivetrain speed, but not directly proportional. The input and output shafts of the torque converter always spin at different speeds during acceleration. You can try a similar experiment to the one you proposed in a car with an automatic transmission. Stand firmly on the brake (with the parking brake engaged and nothing in fro…

From a standstill yes -- the car is slipping the torque converter between disengaged (neutral, idle in a standstill) and first (to actually get going). Exactly the same as a manual, to get moving from a standstill you have to slip the clutch somewhat, and yes your RPMs will go up. But that doesn't apply when the car is already in gear and in motion. In both an auto and a manual, if you're applying enough brake to pre…

Again, no. Torque converters do not have gears or neutral. They are hydraulic couplings. The output shaft of the torque converter turns slower than the input shaft when the car is accelerating, and there is no fixed relation of the input shaft speed to the output shaft speed. The gears are all in the transmission after the output shaft of the torque converter.
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