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Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

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Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#181
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my reading of SSPL v1, it would seem extremely difficult to use in concert with other free software; it requires you to distribute all software [0] you're using to run your service under the SSPL. The trouble is, you can't do that if you're using any other software in your environment that's licensed under another copyleft license such as the GPL. Does this apply all the way down to the Linux kernel? Who knows!…

It seems there are indeed serious issues with SSPLv1 that I was unaware of. That being said, the loophole in the AGPL that they are attempting to address is also a serious issue. The rewording in v2 > “storage software and hosting software” changed to “host orchestration software” seems to be fairly reasonable though, unless I've misunderstood things once again? > But note that not even MongoDB, the project that the…

>> “storage software and hosting software” changed to “host orchestration software”

>seems to be fairly reasonable though, unless I've misunderstood things once again?

It's better, though note that the terms in the list referenced there aren't strictly defined.

>> If this version is approved by OSI, we plan to apply it to the next release of our MongoDB software, which is currently available under version 1.0.

>so it seems they really do just want to address the current loophole in the AGPL.

Sure, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that. But the fact that they haven't switched over by now signals to me that they're not yet confident in the newer version of the license; if they're not, I can't say I am either.

And it's worth noting that SSPL v2 was withdrawn from the OSI review process back in March: https://opensource.org/LicenseReview032019

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#182

If you make your project open source, your goal should be maximizing people using it, not maximizing how much you profit from it. I know they may seem identical, but they aren't: Apple makes a lot of money by making software that has huge roadblocks to using it. And as many people are now realizing, open source has the ability to not make lots of money by making it incredibly easy for anyone to use. We all benefit gr…

The simplest example of this is TeX and MetaFont, MetaPost. The only aim of Knuth was getting people to use them. One was, the other two not so much. And he has not complained that I know of.

Knuth is subsidized by Stanford (and maybe book royalties); not everyone is so lucky.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#183
These are the bullets from the article:

It takes open-source code produced by others, runs it as a commercial service and gives nothing back to the commercial entity that produces and maintains the open source, thereby intercepting the monetization of the open source.

It forks projects and forcibly wrestles control away from the commercial entity that produces and maintains the open-source projects, as it did in the case of Elasticsearch.

It hijacks open-source APIs and places them on top of its own proprietary solutions, thereby siphoning off customers from the open-source project to its own proprietary solution, as it did with the MongoDB APIs.

Check, check, check. Remember RMS' screed? "Only the writing of software should be paid for, the using of it is an inherent right of everyone and should not make any remuneration requirements on the user."

Back when he wrote that he was mad because companiies wrote code and charged big fees just to use it. He felt that was unfair. But now the shoe is on the other foot, and big companies are just "users" they aren't writing the software, so why should they pay for it? And while RMS was happy to have an architect use CAD software that someone else paid to have written, to design the houses that they sold for big bucks to their own clients, I don't think he thought it all the way through.

The missing bit here is that the "using of software" has a value. Whether you are using a better C compiler than your competitors so your compiled code runs faster than theirs, or you are using a distributed database to offer a scaled up database service that is impractical for an individual to equip and maintain. The whole reason people paid for software in the first place is because it accelerated the value they could create. And when that delta in value, that was worth significant money to them. Still is. That is why electronic CAD software still gets big bucks from its users, the same with packages like Adobe studio.

And guess what? When you use someone's software, and you are getting additional value that is accruing to you, if you didn't pay anything to the person who created it and maintains it, they feel cheated. Surprised? I am not.

When the software manufacturers of old found people that used their software without paying for it, they called them Pirates, and Crooks, and all manner of ill names. They turned to technology, and licensing legalize, to create ways they could pursue those people to make them pay. Not unlike the folks at Redis changing their licenses to make it harder for people like Amazon to "pirate" their software. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

There is nothing "free" about Free Software as RMS envisions it, it is just a structural way for the users of the software to rip off the people who wrote it by capturing all of the value gained by using that software to develop or provide a product or service.

It has always been true that software vendors were often extortionate in their pricing while escaping all liability by disclaiming the software did anything. If you fixed that problem, then we will be in a much better place.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#184
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems there are indeed serious issues with SSPLv1 that I was unaware of. That being said, the loophole in the AGPL that they are attempting to address is also a serious issue. The rewording in v2 > “storage software and hosting software” changed to “host orchestration software” seems to be fairly reasonable though, unless I've misunderstood things once again? > But note that not even MongoDB, the project that the…

>> “storage software and hosting software” changed to “host orchestration software” >seems to be fairly reasonable though, unless I've misunderstood things once again? It's better, though note that the terms in the list referenced there aren't strictly defined. >> If this version is approved by OSI, we plan to apply it to the next release of our MongoDB software, which is currently available under version 1.0. >so it…

This is all really disappointing - they ought to mention it up front in their FAQ. I hope they (or someone else) submits a v3 with tighter definitions that can close the SaaS proprietary source code loophole without introducing a compromising level of overreach or ambiguity.

> the fact that they haven't switched over by now signals to me that they're not yet confident in the newer version of the license; if they're not, I can't say I am either.

Agreed; I wouldn't want to make use of it either until the dust is well settled.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#185
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> “storage software and hosting software” changed to “host orchestration software” >seems to be fairly reasonable though, unless I've misunderstood things once again? It's better, though note that the terms in the list referenced there aren't strictly defined. >> If this version is approved by OSI, we plan to apply it to the next release of our MongoDB software, which is currently available under version 1.0. >so it…

This is all really disappointing - they ought to mention it up front in their FAQ. I hope they (or someone else) submits a v3 with tighter definitions that can close the SaaS proprietary source code loophole without introducing a compromising level of overreach or ambiguity. > the fact that they haven't switched over by now signals to me that they're not yet confident in the newer version of the license; if they're n…

I recommend taking a look at the API Copyleft License https://github.com/kemitchell/api-copyleft-license/blob/mast...

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but leadership is needed to coordinate that change. The OSI needs to stand up and say "hey, the widespread use of permissive licenses is a threat to the open source community; please try to avoid them, and here's some ways you can accomplish your goals without a permissive license." Most open source projects aren't monetized, and most monetized projects won't be picked up by Amazon, so without a coordinated pu…

the FSF have been saying that for longer than the OSI has existed. people mocked them for saying that they were idealistic and unreasonable.

And some donate to both. FSF is a big reason we chose GPLv3 - when at first I was thinking MIT.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#187
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly an interesting point of view. Take something that's commercial, for example, like Microsoft's docx format. If Open Office/Libre Office implements support for docx, is it hijacking proprietary formats, and siphoning customers off of proprietary projects? (edit: as it has been pointed out, .docx is a bad example, because it was standardized, but the point stands, I believe.) I hate that this stuff hits H…

> It worries me that we're developing a culture where I as an individual must adhere to some moral framework when writing code, lest I violate some social open source norms. To me, this is deeply poisonous to the spirit of open source. Every culture or community has norms, and many of those norms generalize to universal moral principles, like: participate fairly in a community, not exploit it. "Spirit of Open Source"…

My take on "Spirit of Open Source" is basically: (1) I need this software, (2) I wrote this software and it has satisfied my needs, (3) I'm a nice guy so anyone else who wants to use this can use it free of any requirements whatsoever. Hence I use the MIT license.

I don't care if Amazon or Facebook gets rich off of it. I don't care if Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton get elected based on it. I don't care if the Russians use it. It's a tool, and like a hammer can be used for good or ill, and I disclaim all responsibility for what stupid people do with it. I don't care if somebody forks it and 99% of people start using the fork instead of my original. All I care is that I got what I wanted out of it, I hope perhaps that some other people use it so that they can help contribute and maintain it, and perhaps I'm hoping for a tiny bit of respect and recognition. My expectations are grounded and realistic: very few people will likely use it; I don't have a hope in hell of either making money off of it or of changing the world because of it. And I'm completely satisfied with that. In fact I'm more than satisfied, I feel wonderful because millions of other people are doing the same things with their software and just about anything I could possibly want is out there somewhere. Hence a sense of community and of good will.

Others folks (such as the author of the article) have different "spirits" most of which I find distasteful, including those who have a stick up their arse about big orporations and want to add restrictions about commercial use or about derivative works, those who think their software is God's gift to the world and they thus deserve something for it, those who want to control what others are allowed to do, those who want to change the basic ways that the world works, and those who come from a place of greed and regret. I don't share in any of that outrage, not even a little bit, and so this article (to me at least) is complete rubbish.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#188

I don't understand this sentiment. The whole point of choosing a permissive license is that you want others to have the right to profit off of your work and give you nothing in return. If you don't want others to have that right, then choose a different license. But don't grant the right and then complain when people exercise it.

I think you might want to look into, if you have not already, a topic referred to as "gift culture"[1] The hard reality, that someone like myself believes, is that open source works because most actors try to be considerate of others. It falls apart when everyone acts selfishly. I personally believe the world is better off because we have open source software(as generally defined by the OSI and other groups). So my c…

> "So my concern... is about losing open source as we know it today."

Open source was born out of a closed source world. It couldn't possibly have been a "gift culture" at that time, and yet it birthed and blossomed and amazingly so. To seriously believe open source would go away requires a belief that the forces that birthed it in the first place no longer exist or have significantly diminished. I'd be interesed to hear you expound on that.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#189

The problem isn't really here. The problem is that everyone wants a permissive abusable license when AGPL would be just fine. If everyone here complaining just used AGPL then we wouldn't have this Amazon situation. People want to have their cake and eat it too. They started with an MIT license because it gets more uptake then whine when the license terms are being followed. But then it wouldn't be widely used. The so…

Most companies use open source because the permissiveness gives them optionality that they value highly, and will even invest resources in supporting, but don't expect to exercise in most cases. If you eliminate that optionality (e.g. AGPL) then it erodes the value proposition of open source for companies and thus their interest in supporting it. This is the reason many companies will not touch AGPL, it eliminates most of the value they expected to get from the transaction. And without company support, open source development would languish.

This is the challenge, and it doesn't have an easy answer. Without optionality, open source offers little to corporate users.

Re: Lack of leadership in open source results in source-available licenses

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It worries me that we're developing a culture where I as an individual must adhere to some moral framework when writing code, lest I violate some social open source norms. To me, this is deeply poisonous to the spirit of open source. Every culture or community has norms, and many of those norms generalize to universal moral principles, like: participate fairly in a community, not exploit it. "Spirit of Open Source"…

My take on "Spirit of Open Source" is basically: (1) I need this software, (2) I wrote this software and it has satisfied my needs, (3) I'm a nice guy so anyone else who wants to use this can use it free of any requirements whatsoever. Hence I use the MIT license. I don't care if Amazon or Facebook gets rich off of it. I don't care if Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton get elected based on it. I don't care if the Russia…

This. Exactly this.
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