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Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

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Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#181

Post by notahacker »

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #106

I dislike bullshitters and I've unfortunately had to work with many. I read the paper and something that really stuck out at me is how bullshitters were more likely to actually try and understand the problem than non bullshitters. Page 25: I think about what might have caused the problem and what I can do to solve it Non bullshitters: 85% Bullshitters: 90% I study a map and work out the best route Non bullshitters: 5…

The "bullshitter" metric actually used is highly correlated with people trying to choose the "correct" answer to the questions.

I'm not sure that people trying to conform to the correct answer in a survey/test is particularly well correlated with what most people would consider "bullshitters" in life though (the guy selling vaporware with fake testimonials, the guy who can confidently talk at great length on a subject without actually saying anything meaningful, the guy that's having lots and lots of sex with amazing girls every night but they all go to another school) who are being creative rather than conformist in how they present themselves.

[FWIW it probably also picks up a fair few kids who ticked their familiarity with 'proper numbers' because they studied proper and improper fractions quite recently and understood it very well, though those who [also] asserted familiarity with "subjunctive scaling" have fewer excuses...]

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#183

Post by maze-le »

misterman0 wrote: post #98
will_brown wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness The industry (tech, startups, VC money) do bring bullshit to the front of the industry consciousness. I’ve never seen another industry push and promote “fake it till you make it” so hard. Democratizing this...disrupting that...we respect your privacy and data...DAO/code is law...Self driving cars...uber is creating good jobs.…

>> push and promote “fake it till you make it” Causality then render a situation where bullshitters have now gotten so good at faking it that buyers of tech are simply herrings among hungry dolphins. Bullshitters in our industry have united and made it impossible for buyers (herrings) to see any other choice but to become swallowed as a meal. So they try their best to choose the very best dolphin to be swallowed by.…

>> Solution:

>> - stand the F up on every meeting where you hear BS, and call "shenanigans"!.

Great way to get yourself sidelined in the near future, and not being able to intervene when it will be your job to implement a fantasy...

The problem with being honest in a situation like this is, that it will disrupt everyone in that meeting, not just the bullshitter. You'll be perceived as a fire starter and the next meeting will likely take place without you -- organizations at a certain size can be very flexible this way. Or worse: They retaliate. Bullshitters are usually good at manipulating peoples perceptions. Once they feel threatened, they are likely to respond (in a way, you'll probably lose, since they can dictate the turf and the weapons).

A way I found to deal with a situation like this is: Try to gouge the impressions of the other participants of the meeting -- cigarette breaks are perfect for this kind of "talk in private". Try to figure out if they also found this or that aspect of the meeting a bit odd. If it is so (and it very likely is) call out the BS for what it is, but don't be too bold about it and focus on one - two key aspects, not more.

You are usually not alone in your perception of bullshittery and others are probably aware of it in one way or another. It can be a real eye-opener to them that they are not alone in thinking that, was was talked about before was a bit... exaggerated. Once they are aware they might percieve this notion in other aspects of the work of said bullshitter and it gets harder for them to get away with it.

I have to say, I have only limited experience with roles in higher management. Usally the higher up the food-chain, the better the bullshitters and the better the strategies and tactics of them -- it might not work that way when you are up against a hierarchy of self-proclaimed experts. But in smaller organizations and "everyday"-meeting that are somewhere "near production", this is a valid tactic, that has never failed me thus far.

-----

Gosh how I hate this form of office-politics...

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#184

Post by airstrike »

mirekrusin wrote: post #157
devonkim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colleague of mine put the problem more succinctly “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most executives in finance have done some form of financial analysis and reporting, construction company owners have almost always done a hard day’s worth of labor, and a lot of directors have had to do some acting / camera work and whatnot. In tech (especiall…

That’s a bit shallow isn’t it? Did Elon fly rockets before creating space-x?

Didn't he at least finance it with a big portion of his own money, though? I'm more inclined to trust those than the Elizabeth Holmes Stanford dropout know nothing types

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#185

Post by dave_sid »

kuzehanka wrote: post #7

The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness. Our industry is one where the impostor complex is rife and anyone who sounds confident must know what they're talking about, since even the PhD's aren't half as confident in their field of expertise as a bullshitter is at anything. The tech industry is increasingly inundated with these types of people who manage to get placed…

Filter out bullshitters from a company my making them take a small basic interview test from each level that they are supposedly leading. “Never heard of fizz buzz? Good bye...”

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#186

Post by bartread »

bluetomcat wrote: post #88

When job postings are full of trivial BS language, why complain that some people are completely serious about playing that BS game? It's a wart of contemporary corporate culture, particularly in the tech sector. When you are searching for a "blockchain expert to influence the team", you are attracting only extrovert types maybe with good communication abilities, not a modest and calm guy possessing a sense of inner p…

Not to mention the fact that if you really are searching for a "blockchain expert to influence the team" there's a higher chance the job itself is bullshit, because valid use cases for blockchain seem quite limited, which I suspect would put off many non-bullshitters.

People at work half-jokingly ask me when we're going to integrate blockchain into our platform because they know that, even though it'd sound good in the marketing literature and sales pitches, we have so far discovered no practical use for it and don't want to waste time and energy[1].

[1] Not just the team's energy: solving a problem at scale with blockchain is likely to be hugely inefficient in terms of infrastructure and power consumption.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#187

Post by Macross8299 »

devonkim wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The notion of bullshitters needs to be brought to the front of our industry's consciousness The industry (tech, startups, VC money) do bring bullshit to the front of the industry consciousness. I’ve never seen another industry push and promote “fake it till you make it” so hard. Democratizing this...disrupting that...we respect your privacy and data...DAO/code is law...Self driving cars...uber is creating good jobs.…

A colleague of mine put the problem more succinctly “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most executives in finance have done some form of financial analysis and reporting, construction company owners have almost always done a hard day’s worth of labor, and a lot of directors have had to do some acting / camera work and whatnot. In tech (especiall…

>“what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?”

Not to belabour a point sibling comments have already made but I think it's the other way around, actually. Much more common to have a CEO in tech who has been in the trenches than in other industries.

Compare the likelihood of a tech CEO having some software engineering/programming experience to the likelihood of an oil and gas executive having worked as a roustabout or a welder, or a healthcare industry exec having done rounds as a doctor or nurse.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#188

Post by dave_sid »

munificent wrote: post #73
devonkim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colleague of mine put the problem more succinctly “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Most executives in finance have done some form of financial analysis and reporting, construction company owners have almost always done a hard day’s worth of labor, and a lot of directors have had to do some acting / camera work and whatnot. In tech (especiall…

> “what other industry is there where the top decision-makers have never done the basic work of the company?” Isn't the answer... most industries? My understanding is that large companies in all domains are heavily populated with executives and managers who came straight out of business school and into a leadership position. There are those who rise through the rank and file up to the executive position too. I don't…

Yes a prime example is the NHS. Much management will have no experience attending to patients.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#189

Post by misterman0 »

maze-le wrote: post #183
misterman0 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> push and promote “fake it till you make it” Causality then render a situation where bullshitters have now gotten so good at faking it that buyers of tech are simply herrings among hungry dolphins. Bullshitters in our industry have united and made it impossible for buyers (herrings) to see any other choice but to become swallowed as a meal. So they try their best to choose the very best dolphin to be swallowed by.…

>> Solution: >> - stand the F up on every meeting where you hear BS, and call "shenanigans"!. Great way to get yourself sidelined in the near future, and not being able to intervene when it will be your job to implement a fantasy... The problem with being honest in a situation like this is, that it will disrupt everyone in that meeting, not just the bullshitter. You'll be perceived as a fire starter and the next meet…

>> You'll be perceived as a fire starter >> cigarette breaks are perfect

@maze-le, realize, your fingers are going to get burnt, either way. Just do the right thing. For your kids. Because they are going to ask themselves: "why did daddy work so hard toward X, when X is so bad for humanity?"

Don't fucking do X, man, is all I'm saying. You know what X is.

Re: Bullshitters: Who Are They and What Do We Know about Their Lives? [pdf]

#190

Post by cuspycode »

scandox wrote: post #3

I'm amazed Ireland is so low on the bullshit scale. I feel like we're amazingly good at it. Actually I would say that the country is full of quite subtle bullshitters. I think they gamed the test.

I have only visited Ireland as a tourist, and my impression was that the Irish very much like to tell stories to anyone who will listen, or even to random innocent tourists who are waiting on a train platform. Telling stories is not bullshitting however, but maybe this is a cultural tradition that makes the people aware of bullshitting in a way that affects the test scores?
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