My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data to do this math.
Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
181–190 of 274 posts
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s a Boston to Chicago route that is pretty cool. I took it to Chicago from Albany for less than $100 a few years ago. The only problem is that the schedule is kinda of aspirational. The train from NYC attaches in Albany, and the times often don’t line up. When the economy is good, the westward tracks are busy with frieight traffic so you wait. I enjoyed the trip though and got a lot of work done.
The Late, Slow Limited (Lake Shore Limited). Cool route through the rust belt. The shitty thing about the two East coast-Chicago routes is they dropped dining car service. Until recently sleeping car passengers got an actual on board full service restaurant prepared meal included in the ticket. They dropped this due to costs. Now there is just the cafe car and these airplane style meals included with sleeping car tic…
The Trump 2019 budget cut over $600 million from Amtrack's budget, and Amtrack was already not in great financial shape.
If there's a change in leadership and some changes in US mentality regarding trains vs cars/planes, there might be hope for Amtrack in the future. If not, then I would expect more services being eliminated until there's nothing left.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#183My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data t…
Air travel is extremely tax-subsidized. If taxes on airplane fuel was similar to car petrol taxes in Europe that would be a good start. I hope there can be some sort of EU-wide agreement on that soon, because the current state of affairs is pretty silly and there is no way a single country can unilaterally impose high CO2 taxes on airlines.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#184I was disappointed when I checked if it was possible to do Paris-Warsaw by night train. I imagined entering the train at 5pm, eating something, watching a movie and waking up in Paris in the morning. It sounded much better to me than spending an actual day commuting to/from far away airports and waiting in queues. Unfortunately such train does not exist, but neither does the platform that would allow searching and bo…
Warsaw on a warm summer evening. The sun is setting and there is a beautiful sky above the equally beautiful city. You relax into you sleeper cabin, and gaze out of the window waiting for the train to depart. 'Such a friendly city. Beautiful country.' you think to yourself. The train pulls out of the station. You watch the countryside pass as the night turns dark. You go to sleep. - You wake up at Gare du Nord. At le…
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Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#185My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data t…
Air travel is extremely tax-subsidized. If taxes on airplane fuel was similar to car petrol taxes in Europe that would be a good start. I hope there can be some sort of EU-wide agreement on that soon, because the current state of affairs is pretty silly and there is no way a single country can unilaterally impose high CO2 taxes on airlines.
Yeah, but I propose the opposite: don't cut air subsidies, but add train subsidies.
Basically, my understanding is that countries subsidize air travel because it's good for the economy. Business and trade and all that.
Now that long distance train becomes more fashionable and comfortable (and it does! A 1st class ICE across Germany is like a moving office, wow), you could make the argument that (long distance) train should be similarly subsidized for the exact same reasons: a country with great international train connections will be better at trade. I wonder what would happen to price and availability if that would happen.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
You write "_ferry_" like it's something weird, but it's a completely normal transport option for a huge number of Europeans -- usually for longer journeys, but sometimes to cover a short distance in 20-30 minutes. There are many ferry connections across the Irish, North, Baltic and Mediterranean seas. Ignoring the price, I'd choose an overnight ferry over an overnight train. The worst room on a ferry is probably as l…
I have been on a few overnight trains here in Sweden and they have all been quite old, noisy and shaky ones. This initiative might give enough incentives for companies to invest in better overnight trains, but so far what we are being promised are more lines rather than better experience. In contrast, overnight ferry has been mostly a delight. The room are smaller than hotel but much better than train, they don't sha…
>I have been on a few overnight trains here in Sweden and they have all been quite old, noisy and shaky ones.
I've been on an overnight snabbtåg (SJ) from Köpenhamn to Stockholm to Norrköping and it wasn't that bad (however, I was the only one in my [train] car).
Overnight ferries are quite nice, I'll concede, such as from Holyhead to Dublin or Dublin to Cherbourg; however, that falls to the wayside when the seas are quite rough. In that sense, I would prefer the rickety train to the heaving ship.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#187Oh no!
5 million USD is ridiculously low amount of money for this; I expect that most of it will go to fund studies and planning, not actual trains. IMHO, it would be better to invest on research in cleaner airplanes and some influence-giving Airbus stock.
Also, for the budget I can usually afford on travel, the less time I'm inside the can the better. Trains are a big no-go.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#188It's just like a year ago that SJ tried to kill off the Malmö-Stockholm sleeper. I believe that this will work out when I see it.
As I read the article, the "revival" is more about the government trying to get people to reduce their carbon footprint when travelling, and less about popular demand.
That being said, I remember taking the sleeper from Stockholm to Elsinore in Denmark as a kid. Boarding the ferry while on the train was pretty awesome to a ten year-old. :P
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Depends on what externalities you count in. Is not taxing fossil fuel a subsidy?
I believe fossil fuel is taxed pretty highly in all European countries, let alone Sweden?
Sadly, aviation is often exempt from fuel taxes and even VAT. I don't know the situation in Sweden, it seems they started taxing aviation recently. I don't know how much though.
Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe fossil fuel is taxed pretty highly in all European countries, let alone Sweden?
Not highly enough to account for its externalities.
Importantly, petroleum taxes are usually leveraged on consumers e.g. diesel and gas prices in europe are mostly special taxes (+ VAT), train operators pay taxes on electricity (possibly diesel as well, not sure about that one) but kerosene (and possibly bunker fuel) is free of both VAT and petroleum-specific taxes. And that's despite planes generally producing more CO2/passenger/km than cars by a factor of 30~50%.