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Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

abc.net.au

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Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#181

Post by A2017U1 »

viraptor wrote: post #165
opportune wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be cheaper foor a business to just not hire Australians than to hire a lawyer and dedicate bizdev time to figuring out the intricacies and nuance

It is not cheaper than getting sued for discrimination. Which would be easily proven in many cases, seeing how many people are more afraid of a potential issue with another country's intelligence agencies then of publicly posting about their plans to violate their own employment laws.

That's absurd, not hiring a foreign national on security concerns is a daily event, can you name one discrimination case won for that?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#182

Post by bryanrasmussen »

int_19h wrote: post #177
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're an Australian lawyer I'm going to think this interpretation is a little far out by most Western legal traditions.

Can you explain why? It seems like a straightforward application of the law making some activity illegal, when its jurisdiction is explicitly defined as extending beyond the nation's borders. If you forget the border for a moment and just consider it all a single jurisdiction, aren't you basically saying that somebody can break the law and claim immunity from prosecution on the basis that their job requirements deman…

What I expect would happen is as follows:

1. you take job at place with code review.

2. Australian police say place a backdoor.

3. You say we have code review the backdoor will be caught.

Now at this point the following might happen.

4a. make sure your code is reviewed by X. 4b. ok I guess it won't work. 4c. here is the code to put in, it has a very hard to catch bug that we can exploit.

in no way would I expect them to say 4d. well we're going to take you to court because you took a job that makes entering backdoors difficult.

on edit: improved formatting on 2nd edit: I removed the leading No but, because I can't remember why I started off with that.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#183

Post by mastazi »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #174
mastazi wrote: post #30

I have migrated to Australia many years ago and I have recently become eligible to become a citizen. However I’ve heard stories of tech companies refusing to hire Australians because of the AA Bill, so I’m holding it off for now. The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. I…

Do you mean tech companies in Australia refusing to hire Australian citizens? Or foreign companies? Because the first is very illegal. If your home country allows dual citizenship, it doesn't seem like a problem for getting a job outside Australia. If it's not a government job where they'll do security checks, just don't disclose your dual citizenship. I hold dual citizenship, and not that my company has asked or wou…

The Australian tech sector is not that large, an ill-conceived law like this one could potentially worsen the job prospects here, to the point that one may consider working overseas. I'm not saying that it's likely, but at the same time it's not impossible.

So, yes, I was thinking primarily about foreign companies; (by the way, your argument in relation to Australian companies, "Because the first is very illegal", is not bullet-proof, because there are many things in this world that are illegal, and yet they happen).

My home country allows dual citizenship but I don't think that it would be so easy as you say to withhold this crucial piece of information from an employer: given that about half of my CV is made of positions I've held in Australia, I believe it's not that unlikely that a prospective employer may ask about my citizenship status.

Anyway, I haven't taken any decision yet, I'm just basically taking my time. I agree with you about participating in the democratic process, when I evaluate pros and cons of becoming a citizen, that's the biggest pro in my mind. Being entitled to live in Australia, on the other hand, is not a big factor in this decision, because I already have a permanent visa that lets me do that.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#184

Post by ehnto »

throw0101a wrote: post #2

Ironically OpenSSL started in AU because the crypto (export) laws of the US were too stringent: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSLeay Now it's the opposite?

Encryption isn't illegal due to the bill. In fact encryption law itself hasn't changed. The bill gives the government the ability to compel someone to circumvent encryption (backdoors, spyware etc.) if technically feasible while acting to service a warrant.

It is much worse than banning encryption as it is silent subterfuge and forcing the hand of citizens who would otherwise just be going about their day.

Laws should be able to stop people from doing certain things but forcing people to do something they had no business doing in the first place is insane.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#185

Post by bryanrasmussen »

int_19h wrote: post #177
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're an Australian lawyer I'm going to think this interpretation is a little far out by most Western legal traditions.

Can you explain why? It seems like a straightforward application of the law making some activity illegal, when its jurisdiction is explicitly defined as extending beyond the nation's borders. If you forget the border for a moment and just consider it all a single jurisdiction, aren't you basically saying that somebody can break the law and claim immunity from prosecution on the basis that their job requirements deman…

so it's not that the job requirements demand that law be broken but rather the job requirements are such that the actions being demanded by the law will be ineffective or even worse, be caught out leading to termination of the only Australian 'asset' the government has in the team.

I suppose Australia can attempt to make a law saying any company based in Australia or selling products in Australia or with an internet presence available inside the country of Australia must stop using code review in case you ever hire an Australian citizen we want to put backdoors in your code.

Just imagining it is giving me quite the entertainment value.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#186

Post by toomanybeersies »

mastazi wrote: post #183
toomanybeersies wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean tech companies in Australia refusing to hire Australian citizens? Or foreign companies? Because the first is very illegal. If your home country allows dual citizenship, it doesn't seem like a problem for getting a job outside Australia. If it's not a government job where they'll do security checks, just don't disclose your dual citizenship. I hold dual citizenship, and not that my company has asked or wou…

The Australian tech sector is not that large, an ill-conceived law like this one could potentially worsen the job prospects here, to the point that one may consider working overseas. I'm not saying that it's likely, but at the same time it's not impossible. So, yes, I was thinking primarily about foreign companies; (by the way, your argument in relation to Australian companies, "Because the first is very illegal", is…

> I believe it's not that unlikely that a prospective employer may ask about my citizenship status

I guess that depends on whether you want to lie to a potential employer then, or alternatively renounce your citizenship.

The difference between a PR and a citizenship though is that you have the privilege to live and work in Australia, your PR visa can technically be cancelled on good character grounds, whereas with citizenship you have the right to live and work in Australia. Unlikely to happen I'm sure, but it's there.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#187

Post by adrianN »

maldeh wrote: post #139
ENGNR wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'developer discusses with his boss' => that's 5 years prison right there, not joking It's 5 for not doing it and 5 for telling anyone, 10 for both

Assuming it could be proven, surely? And there have to be limitations as to how far an individual could go as to subterfuge, so if your company enforces a 2-person code review and there aren't other authorized Australian nationals at hand, you could point at process preventing you from doing so without others' knowledge (how naive this defense is, I have no idea)

The obfuscated C coding contest shows that you probably won't catch backdoors with code reviews

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#188

Post by bad_user »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #98
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but sadly, the law does seem to target people rather than (or in addition to) corporations. https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bi... > 317C: > For the purposes of this Part, the following table defines: > (a) designated communications provider; > (b) the eligible activitiesof a designated communications provider > A person is a designated communications provider if... ... Actually, there…

Oh, and it's probably worth noting that you need not even be an Australian citizen to be covered, you simply need to have users in Australia. Of course, whether Australia can enforce these laws against non-citizens is another matter. However, this legislation was specifically put together with co-operation of all members of the five eyes, so there's a reasonable possibility of extradition. The Department of Home Affa…

You can't force non-citizens, obviously, since non-citizens are not under Australian jurisdiction.

If they could, then this would create a problem of national security for other countries.

But yes, the Five Eyes countries can use Australia for their wiretapping.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#189

Post by mcv »

adrianN wrote: post #187
maldeh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming it could be proven, surely? And there have to be limitations as to how far an individual could go as to subterfuge, so if your company enforces a 2-person code review and there aren't other authorized Australian nationals at hand, you could point at process preventing you from doing so without others' knowledge (how naive this defense is, I have no idea)

The obfuscated C coding contest shows that you probably won't catch backdoors with code reviews

Obfuscated code shouldn't pass code review.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#190

Post by perilunar »

jacques_chester wrote: post #64
microcolonel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Relative to what other citizenship?

It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.

Also, Australia ranks well above the USA on most indices of economic freedom.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

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