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Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

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Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#181

Post by rebuilder »

skosch wrote: post #122
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use some of it to subsidise insulation and better standard buildings, cleaner air and power, better railways etc. Fund a UBI. I'm fascinated at downvotes for this suggestion. What's actually wrong with spending part on lower impact infrastructure and part on a replacement for a broken welfare system?

Your heart is in the right place, but what you advocate isn't currently palatable to anyone, left or right, on the political spectrum. Instead, push for a fee-and-dividend model – not entirely UBI, but similar in spirit. It's what most economists support, and it has enough bipartisan support [0] that there is actually a bill before Congress now that has a chance of passing. [0] https://citizensclimatelobby.org/climat…

The left wouldn't support UBI or government-led environmental projects?

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#182

Post by isr »

StreamBright wrote: post #180
simonbyrne wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? China's per capita emissions are less than half of the US.

And the volume?

How about this? Tax goods from (or with large inputs from) China AND the US. Heavily. Harshly. Punitively.

Between them, those 2 are most culpable in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

If you are truly motivated by a genuine desire to address what IS the single most grevious threat, then you ought to agree.

Wholeheartedly.

If you're just going to harp on about China, and ignore the US as being equally the problem (and if we take history into account, the US is the BIGGEST problem), then there's another word for that motivation.

And that word is not "environmentalism"

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#183

Post by rebornshellfish »

porpoisely wrote: post #73
vegardx wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only take-away from this is that Norway should just sit back and relax, no matter what you do, it will be wrong. Less than half of the exports from Norway are oil. It accounts to less than a quarter of revenue. See: https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/economy/governments-revenue...

No. The take away is that norway isn't doing anything but buying publicity with their little neocolonial effort. They lost nothing by this. They only gained. If norway really cared, they should stop drilling oil immediately and turn over their entire $1 trillion wealth fund over to nuclear and clean energy companies. But they'll never do that because they use their money for their own political self-interests. Neverm…

You realise that Indonesia has 15x the population of the Netherlands, right? And that Norway is tiny, literally like 2% of the population of Indonesia? Maybe if Indonesia was more careful with birth control and didn't have babies that it can't afford, it wouldn't have such a problem with poverty. Having babies is not a debt on other people.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#184

Post by yesenadam »

reaperducer wrote: post #156
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products. Help me find a consumer toaster made in the United States. I searched for six months and only found ones made in China. If I want a giant hotel toaster, there is an American option. But nothing sized for a household kitchen. There are lots of people who make efforts to buy domestically. But so much…

I'm not sure how to say this constructively, but your comment reads as if there are only 2 countries in the world! Why is 'Made in USA' your only alternative to 'Made in China'?

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#185

Post by yesenadam »

tropo wrote: post #145
est31 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insects are most efficient btw, but there are cultural reservations about them in the west.

We have the same cultural reservations about shrimp. We do not normally eat the head, tail, exoskeleton, legs, gills, or poo-filled gut. It's pretty similar for chicken; nobody eats the feathers and beaks and poop. Shrimp is nevertheless popular however. We simply remove the parts for which we have cultural reservations. So, where can I get insects that have been properly prepared, just like shrimp?

>nobody eats the feathers and beaks and poop.

Well..chicken feathers and poop are fed to cows which are fed to people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poultry_litter#Use_as_cattle_f...

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#186

Post by rebornshellfish »

porpoisely wrote: post #91
geezerjay wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've missed the whole point of the carbon payment system. The whole point is that it isn't realistic to assume that it's possible to quit oil overnight, buy it's very possible to mitigate its effect by converting some externalities to a concrete price tag and thus creating incentives to abandon the use of at least some fossil fuels and to compensate those who contribute to invert the tendency.

But the "externalities" got shifted from indonesia to somewhere else. How about this, if indonesia told norway to go to hell, cut down their forests, got rich and then in 20 years paid Laos $1 billion to spare their forests. Would we celebrate indonesia as great environmentalists? Of course not. We'd call them hypocrites, especially when the deforestation just moved to cambodia instead. At the end of the day, this ex…

>Tax all of europe X amount of money and shift that wealth to indonesia and ASEAN to achieve an equal living standard?

You're literally the most evil person I have ever seen on the internet. High IQ Europeans, who have secular values, who have the greatest respect for human rights, who invest a lot in their children, and who already suffer under an excessive regulatory/tax burden, do not owe the rest of the world anything.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#187

Post by dontreact »

npongratz wrote: post #141
dontreact wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value add of the layer in complexity is that the costs of some goods but not others would go up. This would make buying and investing in renewables more favorable economically.

So the value add is to artificially add a cost to one form of energy production to make it cost more than another form? That does not sound like a "value add", but rather a simple "cost add," with government agents making the demands and meting out financial (and eventually, physical) punishment for non-compliance. And we really want to add complexity and inconvenience to 2/3rds of households just so they can get the…

Burning fossil fuels has a real cost to everyone which is not priced appropriately by the free market (this is a well known economic effect known as a negative externality). This tax corrects for the artificially low costs.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#188

Post by freeflight »

lazyjones wrote: post #152
maaaats wrote: post #2

> In 2010, Norway pledged to support Indonesia with up to 1 billion USD depending on results. It's easy to sit in a developed western country, buying products from other countries, and then complain about their emissions. I'm glad that we're trying to be responsible. It may not be enough or not the right way to do it (some thoughts on this?), but it's something.

People in developed western countries have been buying rainforests to protect the environment for decades: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/24/cantwe... I'm not sure how it's being protected though. OTOH the earth has been getting greener recently: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/we-are-making-the-gl... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100201171641.h... http://www.keepmepostedeu…

I remember buying a childrens-print magazine, as a kid in the 80s, that had a bit more expensive special issue, but each sold copy was supposedly used to buy a couple of m² of the rainforest.

They marketed it in an "own a piece of the rainforest" way and kid me was super stoked about the idea of owning a piece of rainforest, imagining how I would be living there.

I think it might have been Yps [0], but I'm not 100% certain.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yps_(comics)

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#190

Post by reaperducer »

yesenadam wrote: post #184
reaperducer wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products. Help me find a consumer toaster made in the United States. I searched for six months and only found ones made in China. If I want a giant hotel toaster, there is an American option. But nothing sized for a household kitchen. There are lots of people who make efforts to buy domestically. But so much…

I'm not sure how to say this constructively, but your comment reads as if there are only 2 countries in the world! Why is 'Made in USA' your only alternative to 'Made in China'?

It isn't. But as I stated, there were exactly zero choices other than Made in China when I searched. And I did a very thorough search.
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