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Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

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Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#181
post #25

Oh wow, this is amazing. There's been a lawsuit in court about someone in Germany who sued their landlord because the landlord has put a Google Nest fire alarm into their flat against their will, ignoring offers by the renter to put in a non-google-non-iot fire alarm at the renter's expense. The landlord won because apparently the court was not convinced that the fire alarm could spy on conversations [1]... What woul…

The microphone / motion sensor issues aside I would never sleep in an apartment where someone could remotely silent an alarm.

I doubt the landlord said the tenant couldn't put up a second fire alarm.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#182
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The microphone / motion sensor issues aside I would never sleep in an apartment where someone could remotely silent an alarm.

AFAIK, you have to be in close physical proximity to the nest alarm to silence it.

Unless you're the CIA/NSA.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Google, I'm not sure how option 2 is supposed to be acceptable either. It is perfectly reasonable to be concerned about introducing an internet-connected microphone into your house. It doesn't even require assuming a malicious Google to see potential problems with this. You're one decent security flaw (in an IoT device no less) from anybody having a microphone in your house.

I don't know which specs exactly people are referencing, but if its marketing specs or the specs you would see on the box then I don't expect consumer products to have "microphone (disabled)" for unused hardware just as I wouldn't expect it to list some unused PCB circuitry. It might be reasonable to be concerned about this kind of thing in the tech crowd, but the vast majority of people aren't.

The tech crowd are their first customers. There's no downside to listing the microphone, so why not do it?

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#184
post #134

Mods, Can you change the title to say "Nest Gaurd's", because this has nothing to do with the Nest Thermostat, which is called, "Nest".

Yeah, I was worried it was the thermostat too. Hopefully that day will NOT come when they tell us all their products have microphones in them.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#185

Having worked at large companies before, I'm almost certain that more than one person working on the product raised the point "this has a microphone, why isn't it documented?" or "this has privacy implications", but was silenced. (Or it could be that everyone working at Google has been carefully chosen to not have such concerns; I do get that feeling sometimes too.)

Contrast this to Amazon: during design of the original Echo at Lab126, an engineering discussion took place where they determined that implementing the mute function in software would be less expensive in terms of component requirements than implementing a physical disconnect of the mic circuit.

The engineering team refused to take the less expensive route, and insisted that the mute button physically disconnect the circuit, so that no future engineering team could decide to stealth "unmute" the microphone through software.

To this day, you can disassemble an Amazon Echo device and you will find a physical disconnect of the mic circuitry when you push the mute button. Don't want an "always listening" smart speaker? Just keep it muted, and a red LED circle informs you that the mic is physically disconnected.

I'm proud of the approach that Amazon takes to privacy. Privacy of customer data is considered the most important thing to Amazon, and this customer obsession (the #1 leadership principle) permeates the organization.

Disclaimer: I'm a principal engineer at Amazon.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#186

Having worked at large companies before, I'm almost certain that more than one person working on the product raised the point "this has a microphone, why isn't it documented?" or "this has privacy implications", but was silenced. (Or it could be that everyone working at Google has been carefully chosen to not have such concerns; I do get that feeling sometimes too.)

It seems at least as likely that the microphone feature, as a non-working component of a future product upgrade, was omitted at the request of attorneys reviewing the product literature so as to not create a false expectation of that unreleased feature.

I've worked on several products that had capabilities that we were told by attorneys could not be "advertised" (i.e., no references to them) until the complete feature was ready to be announced.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's getting close to conspiracy territory

Yes? Obviously it's not far fetched to fear that Google will spy on their alarm users, as its core business depends on it. Conspiracys is not a nutcase dellusion it happens all the time but the term is somehow tainted, which in itself is somewhat of a conspiracy... "the microphone has never been on", Google say about a passive device as it matters. More accurate would be "we did not record the microphone" but that mi…

They depend on having at least some reputation left so that they can siphon huge amounts of ad targeting data a lot more then on getting a few dark secrets in a super underhanded manner.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#189

Having worked at large companies before, I'm almost certain that more than one person working on the product raised the point "this has a microphone, why isn't it documented?" or "this has privacy implications", but was silenced. (Or it could be that everyone working at Google has been carefully chosen to not have such concerns; I do get that feeling sometimes too.)

Product Marketing does not 'document' they position, and write about features. If the 'mic' isn't part of feature or proposition, why would it even be in their radar?

The '1st order' response of marketing doing their job is 'who cares?'. Few people care about tech tidbits that are not user oriented.

There's already tons of things to worry about and address - and every single bit of copy takes up valuable space.

The issue also does not fit into the standard communications framework: Hey, should we should tell people that there is a microphone, even if it is not working and does nothing? How do we even do that? "Hey, your alarm has a microphone!" Wouldn't that seem odd, why does it have a microphone?! You'd even have to kind of explain it: "Your product has a microphone so that one day in the future, you might enable some other features that don't exist yet"

"this has privacy implications" - no - it only has the perception of privacy implications. Because Google is not actually intervening on people's privacy, it's unlikely they really thought about the need to give people an unneeded affirmation.

Maybe they had a discussion about it, maybe it just didn't rise to the level of 'very important'.

Only with a very specific concern for a subgroup of customers who are wary of these things, would someone have enough leverage to get that "Hey, there's a microphone that does nothing!" notice on the box.

Google is not doing specific evil. They are not trying to infiltrate your homes and take nude pictures of you so they can look at them or sell them.

They are systematically evil, in the sense that it makes sense for them to sell you voice/video features that you want in order that they might provide you even better services. And their AI will use nudies of you in a backwards way to learn more about you.

They're getting evil due to their scope of influence, and negative externalities, much like FB has problems with 'Russian interference in elections' - i.e. not a problem they are trying to create, not a problem they want, just a sensitive byproduct of their product and massive success.

Re: Google says Nest’s built-in mic not listed in specs was not meant to be secret

#190
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of course makes a big difference. We are all adults. We can weight pros and cons and then make an informed decision. Not so if we don’t know all the details. This is what you’re betting on when leaving “details” like this out.

Lots of technology now incorporates the idea that people are better not given too many choices. DRM/trusted computing, root-locked phones, software and operating systems that decide what information they send where, without any explicit consent or choice to disable.

And how is any of that fine?
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