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Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

bloomberg.com

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Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I just chant this as I drive past the food banks at the people in line?

Places where people get free food This is somehow a problem Hmm.

Is that... is that really your argument? That everything is fine because these people in line at the food bank are able to get free food so that their children don't starve to death? So we can ignore the massive wealth disparity and the vast number of people living in poverty because we don't force them to die of hunger. That's very magnanimous of you. Imagine what they could accomplish with both free food and knowledge of your mantra.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The over-arching point I believe the parent comment is making is that the kinds of people who didn't get college degrees back then because they weren't needed are getting college degrees now, because they are needed as qualifications for jobs. They weren't incapable of it back then, it just wasn't necessary nor widespread. Now it is. So it's the same kinds of people doing police work then as now, with the same aptitu…

Just a point on the population of Manhattan, it’s be careful with those numbers and applying them to modern day. People used to cram into death trap tenements 10 to one windowless room in some cases. Hundreds of thousands would live on a street that now houses a thousand people. I don’t think that density is coming back or desirable.

You're exaggerating the population density. It definitely wasn't hundreds of thousands per street! Some figures here: https://urbanomnibus.net/2014/10/the-rise-and-fall-of-manhat... And it's worth pointing out that the peak population density in walk-up tenements was still well below what can be accomplished with tall modern day residential apartment buildings.

No one is saying the tenements were desirable, or wishes for them to come back. What we want is the construction of more dense residential housing that can meet or exceed that population density while providing good quality of life. Said construction is entirely possible, doable, and profitable, except that zoning prohibits it in most places.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make very good points above. I really enjoyed college, especially my liberal arts classes. That being said, with AWS Certs going for between $75-$300 how long do colleges think they can survive? If you were a 22 yr old who studied from zero-level computing knowledge for 12 months and got the AWS Solutions Architect Pro cert (somewhat possible assuming 2 hours / day) I can already guarantee you’d receive a written…

==I really enjoyed college, especially my liberal arts classes.== I think this highlights the true question. Do colleges exist to promote education and intellectual curiosity or to train workers? According to PEW, Americans believe colleges are for work training: "Americans are split on the main purpose of college, with 47% saying it is to teach work-related skills and 39% saying it is to help a student grow personal…

> Do colleges exist to promote education and intellectual curiosity or to train workers?

I don't really think the teaching part at most universities oriented toward training workers. If they were oriented toward training workers, then the administration would be worried about what skills are in demand by employers...probably training students on particular software, computer languages, jargon and techniques that are common. There would be more emphasis on getting various certifications while still in undergrad. I can't speak to promoting "intellectual curiosity" because it seems hard to define and if you did I bet it would depend mainly on the nature of the student...probably his/her genes, peer group and childhood role models...not on the actions of someone the student sees three hours per week during adulthood.

As it is, a professor can (very often, though not always) be totally incomprehensible and irrelevant to work, as long as they are not offensive, without any repercussions nor even any gentle communication that he/she explain things clearly. Humans tend to craft stories favorable to themselves, so even if the student evaluations are negative, the professor can just blame e.g., short attention spans in the era of marijuana and fortnite...or the professor just might not look at the student evaluations if they don't want to. Over time, some professors even develop a sort of perverse joy at confusing students...their confusion being the sign that the professor is very smart and that he is "challenging" them, when in all likelihood he is just asking them things he never explained clearly in the first place. In my undergrad, an EE professor bragged that the class average was a 23%; he also used his TA as a translator because he could not speak english.

It is expected most everywhere that students will learn work skills on the job and in internships...not at school. Professors at research universities spend all their time thinking about hard frontiers of a topic, and that frontier might have little to do with what you do on the job.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#185

>an economist at the job-search company Indeed, finds that when salaries are adjusted for local costs of living, the average worker actually makes less in New York City or Los Angeles than in Toledo, Ohio or Birmingham, Alabama: Particularly impressive considering that the "average" for NYC, LA, SF includes a lot more very high salaries than Toledo and Birmingham (Google, FB, etc are not hiring hordes of SREs making…

I was just doing this calculation the other day, for a bit of background I am in an area of the Midwest, close to Toldeo and am graduating in May. I interned in NYC last summer and sublet there. So I was trying to decide whether to move out that way or stay in a smaller Midwest city to start my career in. When you factor in cost of living, rental costs, junior level developer salaries, taxes, and transportation costs…

I went from living in the city and commuting via rail, walking to the grocery store, etc, etc to owning a house an hour out of the city, commuting via car, etc, etc.

The mortgage payment is about the same as my rent. Even after all the additional costs of home ownership I am able to save more money. Then there's the quality of life improvements. I have 1500sf instead of <500. I don't have to plan my grocery shopping around the weather. My girlfriend can have a pet (and I can have a happier girlfriend). Etc. etc.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that item to have quantifiable value to others though, they must be willing to exchange their money for the new item. The money that is to be exchanged already existed and is supposed to be limited in supply via fiscal policy. If the majority of that supply is owned by a small group of people the value that can be exchanged for the newly created item is limited as well unless those with the wealth want it.

Non monetary value exists, look at entertainment or education, both gained free via YT

Its not free. You are the product. Advertisers pay google and google is then able to provide the infrastructure to provide your entertainment. Its provided to you in hopes that you will buy something based on the ads you are shown. It must also be effective advertising if people continue to pay for it.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#187
This article reads like it was written in 1990. Two points: 1) their own graph shows manufacturing employment started going back up in about 2011, and has continued to do so, which seems like an odd thing not to comment about given that it is counter to the entire thesis of their article 2) it has been pretty well demonstrated in the last couple years that college degrees became required for a job in recent years because employers had the option of requiring it, not because it was actually necessary, and as the labor market has tightened the requirements have been relaxed. The supposed "skills gap" was at least partly (perhaps largely) about HR departments using college degree as a proxy for class, and also just a way to cut down the huge stack of resumes to a manageable number.

I think Blooomberg's audience is nervous that the recent resurgence in manufacturing, and the recent increase in the percentage of the population working, are undercutting their narrative of "it's automation, there's nothing we can do".

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#188

I find the tone of articles like these to be patronizing. Let's be clear, the hollowing out of rural economies is a direct and explicit effect of trade policy, and not some accident of economics and markets. The precise dynamic in this article is that where previously cities provided capital and farms provided food, with a spectrum of services in between - with globalization, cities no longer depend on their regional…

Trade policy? Lets start with some basics here: farms are getting larger, and there is no longer available farm land that wasn't already converted to farm land. That happened a long time ago, before me anyway. Farmer Jo has 4 kids and one farm. That farm only produced enough income for one family to live on, if they are lucky and expanded, maybe two. So Farmer Jo + One kid and family. All the other kids have to go el…

I don't think GP's distinction between cities providing capital and rural areas providing food is really the line drawn by the article, or typically when comparing regional inequality. For example, the article notes that CoL adjusted average income is greater in Beaumont, TX and Birmingham, AL than NYC and SF.

Automation probably is what has caused farm unemployment, but trade policy can absolutely be blamed more for manufacturing unemployment in areas that aren't "big cities". The Syracuse or the Altoona metro areas aren't exactly farmland, but they definitely aren't NYC or SF, either.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#189
post #10

" middle-class life to those without a college degree " Anytime you start delving into what has changed for a subset of people, over decades, the most important piece of the puzzle is decided ding who qualifies for the subset. I mean concepts like "middle class" or "without a college degree." A lot more people get degrees, in 2018. Does the graduates/nongraduates segment still represent a comparable group of people?…

You make very good points above. I really enjoyed college, especially my liberal arts classes. That being said, with AWS Certs going for between $75-$300 how long do colleges think they can survive? If you were a 22 yr old who studied from zero-level computing knowledge for 12 months and got the AWS Solutions Architect Pro cert (somewhat possible assuming 2 hours / day) I can already guarantee you’d receive a written…

"That being said, with AWS Certs going for between $75-$300 how long do colleges think they can survive?"

Colleges shouldn't be in the business of training people for jobs - that is what tech schools are for. If you just want to get a job, go to a tech school, don't go to college. College is (or should be) about expanding your mind, your horizons. It should be about exposing you to new ideas and thoughts you hadn't been exposed to before. There is a reason why University and Universe have the same root.

Re: Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers

#190

I find the tone of articles like these to be patronizing. Let's be clear, the hollowing out of rural economies is a direct and explicit effect of trade policy, and not some accident of economics and markets. The precise dynamic in this article is that where previously cities provided capital and farms provided food, with a spectrum of services in between - with globalization, cities no longer depend on their regional…

Trade policy? Lets start with some basics here: farms are getting larger, and there is no longer available farm land that wasn't already converted to farm land. That happened a long time ago, before me anyway. Farmer Jo has 4 kids and one farm. That farm only produced enough income for one family to live on, if they are lucky and expanded, maybe two. So Farmer Jo + One kid and family. All the other kids have to go el…

Algona, Iowa. Not something i'd thought i'd EVER see mentioned on HN. Hat tip
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