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Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

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Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#181

Post by deaps »

ronilan wrote: post #146
austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code. I no longer believe this. I think “people who cannot code” is a myth perpetuated by those who gain something out of it. People who’s business or job is to filter candidates, people who’s business is to sell their own “improved” version of training, people in need of an ego boost and actually, mainly by people who just repeat it cause they heard it…

I agree with you. I code a lot at my current job as a network engineer. I use logic in just about everything I do - that being said, I'm actually really good at what I do and I consider coding and evaluating really old code to be my strong suit, among other things. I certainly couldn't do some of these 'tests' I see people talking about - such as import a CSV and convert it to a JSON file then upload it to github...If I sat down for an interview and they asked me that, there's no doubt that I would fail. I guess I'm lucky that I like my current job.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#182

Post by TACIXAT »

Yes, it absolutely is. Learn full stack and go work at one of the web tech giants. (There are obviously other options, but I mention the tech giants because the salaries are very lucrative.) This usually means understanding data structures and algorithms so you can get past the interview questions.

Aside from tech giants, the web is probably one of the most used interfaces ever. There a tons of business opportunities online. Just about every business is participating online. There are tons of jobs here.

I specialized in computer security and am basically doing web development at a major tech company right now. It's kinda sad but I like money.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#183

Post by SovietDissident »

geebee wrote: post #158
apazzolini wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I no longer believe this. You should try interviewing "software engineers" that claim to have 10 years of experience architecting and coding in various languages and cannot write a function that doubles the value of each number in an array.

You should try interviewing as a software engineer with 10 years experience. They never ask you to double the value of each integer in an array. They ask you to find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, or to find all sub-matrices in an NxM matrix with a positive determinant in a matrix of arbitrary size, or find all words in a dictionary that can be constructed by concatenating other words in the dictionary. The…

Which would be fine if the companies acknowledged that they are having trouble hiring because they're extremely picky.

Exactly this. I'm mid-level, trying to switch jobs. Several front-end javascript positions I interviewed for asked me anything from pretty tough algorithms to "how does Angular do namespacing" to object-oriented questions relating to Java to how to style a page and add event listeners to it without ability to reference the docs, etc.

The questions per se are not undoable, but the the sheer magnitude of the corpus they can ask questions from is what's so difficult. I accept this and try to cover as much as I can in self-study and outside courses, so I can better in future interviews. But it is a substantial burden timewise, and seems to be of diminishing marginal utility regarding actual, on-the-job performance, which is pretty annoying. Oh yeah, and then they reveal that they want to pay me $75k per year for a mid-senior position, in California. I know people who make that starting out of college as Account Managers for bigger CPG (consumer packaged goods) or pharma companies, with a company car and cell phone. (Granted, I think those jobs would be boring and also at-risk over the long-term, but the time spent/compensation difference seems out of whack.)

If there really were a shortage, companies would check for fundamentals but relax their standards and offer more on-the-job training for candidates. And wages would be significantly higher! Should get rid of H1Bs as a start, and see if that helps.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#184

Post by tracker1 »

ArtWomb wrote: post #103
austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

>>> there is insane demand I am seeing it as well. And am recommending Lambda School to just about everyone who asks ;) The main problem I see is the steep learning curve. The intro lessons are facile enough. Anyone can setup VS Code, and install an App Engine SDK. But by the time they get to modules 3-4 ("designing the data schema"). They are ready to throw in the towel. At some point, a student requires one-to-one…

I think it depends... I've worked on interviewing and hiring candidates that come out of coding schools. It's generally those that go above and beyond the assigned homework that get hired. When you're working as a developer, most of the time you don't have a prescriptive answer and you need to figure it out. Sometimes it's not the best solution, but that is the point advice can be given on how to improve/mentor.

Self-drive is probably 50% of success as a software developer. 35% is knowing what some of the options are (prescriptive or otherwise) and the last 15% is aptitude. You can be a solid B level developer without any aptitude, but it requires more drive. YMMV.

Different people have different personalities. When I was 4yo, I broke the training wheels off my bicycle and figured it out myself because it felt like they were more in the way trying to ride. In my early career, I spent time removing obstacles and learning literally everything I could. I am self-taught, not higher education at all. Other people need more hand holding. Once you start working, you need to be able to jump into the deep end and at least tread water.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#185

Post by tracker1 »

CrackpotGonzo wrote: post #124
austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

If you were getting started today, would you choose the data science or web dev track if you were looking for most long-term career stability?

It depends on where you want to start out, or go. Most developers of all types will wind up working in a dozen different environments and tools that weren't even a thing when starting.

In the end, you will never be able to stop and rest on your laurels, as you will be unable to find work if you do. Constantly learn, constantly grow, and when starting out, go above and beyond any assigned work.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#186

Post by tracker1 »

eu2usthrowaway wrote: post #89
austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

I wanted to PM you but don't know how, hence throwaway. I apologize for not using my real hacker handle. I've just graduated (did 3 IT study programs in total -- 6 years of studying, overkill yes, I didn't have any good career advise via my friends, family or uni). Do you help people from the EU to work in the US? If so, then I'd really consider applying to your school since I am noticing that I can't get there mysel…

Not just the U.S. but in most cases, short of a Masters degree or equivalent, it's almost impossible to get hired in another country (some countries have easier migration treaties). Even then it will be difficult. You might be able to come into the U.S. under an H1B program, but there are down sides there.

I'm in the US and have looked into moving overseas in the past. Good luck, I wish I had contacts that could help/share, I just don't.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#187

Post by est31 »

emilecantin wrote: post #147
cantthinkofone wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another risk I think is the automation of coding. It already happens all the time, and in principle coding should be the most automatable of anything. The only thing saving it is that it's very hard to automate the creation of good ideas or purposeful human intentions, which naturally inform most successful coding projects. There's also a bit of a conflict of interest, why would coders building automation systems wan…

You have to think of it at a higher level: My job isn't coding, it's clarifying ideas. Programming languages can get higher-level, and more automated, but nothing is ever going to free us from the burden of clarifying our ideas. I believe this makes my job (the interesting parts, at least) pretty safe in the long-term.

That's a very nice way to put it IMO. See also this commit strip comic about the same topic: http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2016/08/25/a-very-comprehensiv...

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#188

Post by tracker1 »

voidhorse wrote: post #168
austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

You're probably correct (I don't know enough about the junior applicant pool myself but I am going to speculate nonetheless), but 'cannot code' is vague, and I think this precise sort of vagueness creates confusion around: a.) What companies need. b.) What companies think they need. c.) What prospective programmers think companies need. What companies actually need (or should need, if they're solving some problem), I…

From my experience, it's often what should be simple understanding of workflow logic or specifics to the language/environment one is claiming knowledge of. My expectations at an interview level are extremely low, but still would pass at least 2/3 of candidates by.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#189

Post by tracker1 »

mschaef wrote: post #59
avar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just bypassing OP's question. You could similarly ask if plumbing, plastering or tiling is still a viable career choice in construction, or whether one should focus on general carpentry. You'd then try to work on projects where your construction specialty is seen to be more valuable than not, that goes to your comment. But that's an entirety different question than whether a specialty should be pursued, and i…

For whatever it's worth, their answer was pretty close to my immediate reaction when I saw the question. Maybe another way of phrasing the answer is that no, I don't think 'Web Dev' is a viable career option. This becomes even more true when viewed on a time scale of 10, 20, 30 years. (Tying to a specific technology brings the horizon in even further... Web Dev 20 years ago was CGI scripts, 10 years ago it was server…

Dunno, I started out with a lot of perl-cgi, and now do mostly react/redux/material-ui on the front end... I've picked up a lot of backend stuff over the years. SQL/PostgreSQL/Firebird/DB2/Oracle/mySQL, mongo, aws, azure, rethinkdb, rabbitmq, etc... The key is to not rest and constantly be learning/growing. That includes line of business knowledge.

I love this kind of work. Writing learning software for airplane systems. Accounting and auditing systems for fortune 100. Kiosk+POS for water distribution platforms. Security software. Election services software... It's been an amazing 24 years, and I have absolutely every intention to keep learning/working until I die.

I find that a lot of people just think that "web dev" stops at the browser.

Re: Ask HN: Is web development still a viable career choice?

#190

Post by [deleted] »

austenallred wrote: post #76

Yes. I am the co-founder of Lambda School - (YC S17 - a CS education where the school doesn’t get paid unless you get a good job). Right now we see about 3 students/day get hired. You’ll likely hear a lot of people talking about how the market for juniors is flooded. That is partially true, but it’s flooded with people who cannot code . If you can actually be a productive employee I literally know 100 companies that…

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