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Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

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Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#181

Post by AsyncAwait »

seibelj wrote: post #112
raprp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can this be downvoted? Did Argentina get trapped in debt with IMF because a meteor hit Buenos Aires? Did a tsunami hit Athens? These countries burned through their reserves with no responsibility at all, reserves which were hard earned money from the population, and people demonize the IMF alone?

It has become popular on the left to blame the IMF for a country’s problems, when the IMF is the last resort for a country that has shot itself in the foot. Some people can’t handle reality when it conflicts with their fantasy.

As someone on 'the left', the criticism are both of the IMF and the local governments. Pretending however that the IMF does not play a role in many 'misfortunes' is laughable. It is also ignorant to pretend that because Africa has been more or less 'independent' for over 40 years, that the history of colonialism should be discounted as having no effect on the present anymore.

This does not mean that the countries themselves should bear no responsibility and few are making that claim.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#182

Post by ixtli »

kolikotime wrote: post #63

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

Thank you so much for this write up. I’m not from the area but I’m very wary of this sort of reporting. I really appreciate your thoroughness here :)

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#184

Post by sathackr »

kolikotime wrote: post #149
FakeComments wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I’m American. And honestly, you have every reason to tell me to fuck off and more besides. And I’m not Father Christmas, if you make a deal with me, I expect something in exchange. But what can we do for people in Africa?

Invest in African growth businesses(stocks at the moment, African focused mutual markets). Purchase African products. Lobby your government/EU governments to continue AGOA(US)/open the door towards African food/crop imports (unlikely). And honestly, tourism, some great destinations on the continent, and a great way to actually spend in local economies. Africans don't need charity. The NGO industrial complex has faile…

I think the problem with the "West" and Africa, is that we view Africa as mostly a single unit, and not the individual countries that make up the continent. From a westerners prospective, African countries have a huge corruption issue, and years of "give-a-man-a-fish" charity from the West appears to have labeled westerners as someone to be taken advantage of and to get free handouts from. It's difficult to evaluate the legitimacy of a company ran be people who think much differently than you.

I've been following the story of a Westerner (I believe he is American) that is taking a land trip through Africa[1]. While there are areas of great, geniune people, many of his stories involve people, both government and private, in the countries trying to exploit him for money, gifts, etc...

He went into a rant in one of his posts that I think has been removed now, but the gist was that years of free handouts from the West is the reason for this behavior.

I don't know how to fix it, but this mentality and perception has to be fixed by the African people -- the West is not going to change on its own. The problem seems to ultimately have been created by the West, and should be fixed by the West, but the reality of the situation is that is not likely to happen. If Africa wants Western investment, it will need to address these stereotypes and perceptions, otherwise China will continue investing. They are not involved in African politics now, but wait 50 years and see if that is still the story. They have to establish their grip on the money first. Once they have solid control of the money, the control of the people will follow.

[1] http://theroadchoseme.com

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#185

Post by onetimemanytime »

buboard wrote: post #98
m000 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece should have thought of that: - Provide unfettered economic access to China for 20 years in exchange for having the country's debt paid by them. - Seed a few alarmist articles. - Wait until USA and EU go crazy over that and summarily agree on a debt write-off.

Greece did play that card: the government visited china and russia asking for loans . Did not change anything as far as i know. (The chinese already had a strategy for greece and the balkans though which is progressing steadily - they are part of one belt one road)

Greece is in EU and NATO. EU, monetarily and NATO in defense have Greece by the, you know what. No one can give Greece the money that EU gives them and if Greece loses NATO, Turkey is waiting. So no Chinese or Russian base will be allowed in Greece or Turkey gets a wink and a nod to remind Greece which side the bread is buttered. http://www.ekathimerini.com/235989/article/ekathimerini/news...

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#186

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

kolikotime wrote: post #166
ethbro wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we definitely felt sorry for Ivory Coast when French special forces busted into their presidential palace to resolve a domestic electoral dispute. You're referring to French forces arresting Laurent Gbagbo when he refused to cede power after losing the 2010 election? Allowing his winning opponent to assume the presidency? Extraditing Gbagbo to stand trial at ICC in The Hague? Where there's a chance he might be…

Some will say that it was a good intervention, in my opinion it is the continued and sustained pattern of French intervention that has resulted in the continued fragile nature of these states. And oh please we all know it wasn't really about "democratization", it was about removing an opponent of French geopolitical aims. Ivory Coast background - France enables a local despot, known as Felix Boigny, who does enable l…

I feel like at this point we have seen various different approaches to working with/in Africa and they are all not exactly a raving success.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#187

Post by zmw »

fatjokes wrote: post #160
kolikotime wrote: post #63

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

The echo chamber you mention doesn't simply exist here in the comments section, it's basically a narrative that's currently being pushed by the western media. I suspect at least a small part of it is motivated by guilt over European colonialism. This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!" No doubt this comment will earn me an accusation of being a Chinese gov't shill as well.

> This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!"

Seriously? Even if one believes in this Chinese colonialism thing, there's no way in hell partial economic control is worse than genocides and slavery that accompanied European colonialism in the past.

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#188

Post by kazinator »

zmw wrote: post #187
fatjokes wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The echo chamber you mention doesn't simply exist here in the comments section, it's basically a narrative that's currently being pushed by the western media. I suspect at least a small part of it is motivated by guilt over European colonialism. This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!" No doubt this comment will earn me an accusation of being a Chinese gov't shill as well.

> This lets them say "See! the Chinese are worse!" Seriously? Even if one believes in this Chinese colonialism thing, there's no way in hell partial economic control is worse than genocides and slavery that accompanied European colonialism in the past.

That's a bit of a tu quoque fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko

#189

Post by gdy »

kolikotime wrote: post #63

West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…

Thank you for sharing your point of view, just a small correction: Russian term 'near abroad' refers specifically to the former USSR republics in their relation to Russia, not to any neighboring country.

For example, this term doesn't apply to Finland or China.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ближнее_зарубежье

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