Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#181

Post by ghaff » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

ghostly_s wrote: post #145

ghaff wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s rarely corruption as such. In a genuinely small town, you have town officials maybe making $30K per year and decisions like the one discussed here being voted on by the 10% who care enough to show up at a town meeting. Most probably hadn’t heard what was going on if there’s no town newspaper. I don’t mean to sound bleak. I live in a small town. In general public works does a fine job. I’m not sure I’d trust them…

Sounds like your small town is socially dysfunctional. If you think your neighbors are apathetic, why aren't you out doorknocking to get them to show up to these things, or bringing it up at the church potluck/what have you? I don't see how these things are different in cities except when people are wiling to do this civic engagement work.

The statistics I quoted referred to the OP article. I care about relatively few town issues and have attended meetings or signed a petition when there’s been something of interest. I don’t go to church potlucks or other town events in general nor do I care to for the most part.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#182

Post by dudul » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

greggyb wrote: post #180

dudul wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Norway and Sweden are as large as France size wise. 2) Now, for fun, let's integrate the price dimension to this report. Yes I have better (maybe 1.5 to 2 times as fast) Internet than my parents who are in Europe, but I also pay 3 times what they pay for it.

Regarding 2), that seems like an un-justified expectation that 2x in some category should be 2x price. I can buy a Chevrolet Spark for $14K. Top speed is listed at 110mph. Here's a list of cars that can go 200mph https://www.automobilemag.com/news/all-cars-that-go-200-mph/ . Find me a new one for $28K. I can buy a $90 printer for 27 pages per minute: https://www.amazon.com/Dell-E310DW-Wireless-Monochrome-Print... I c…

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

People in France or Germany have access to literally 12 different providers. Everywhere. Granted, it looks like the overall speed is below the US's according to the report, but prices are so much lower (my parents probably pay in the order of $10$/mo for their TV/Internet package) and access is way more homogenous.

I suspect that US results are vastly skewed by hyper-connected areas vs huge parts of the country where Internet is total garbage.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#183

Post by greygore » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

technobabble wrote: post #104

bronco21016 wrote: post #86

I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I bought a home and it’s only been over the last 6 months or so I’ve realized how horribly corrupt and mismanaged small city governments can be. We’re being sucked dry by our mayor who hired her cousin as city manager for an exorbitant compensation package. They…

I highly recommend The Dictator's Handbook in order to fully understand the de facto politics going on in governments.

I'd also like to recommend CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs) which is based on The Dictator's Handbook. I really should add that to my library though...

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#184

Post by rayiner » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #158

rayiner wrote: post #16

I feel like people are being shortsighted about municipal fiber. It’s not a one time and you forget it thing. Verizon has upgraded the FiOS network several times since 2005. We have some towns on the eastern shore of MD that did municipal cable, back when that was the state of the art. Those systems are lagging far behind Comcast now because nobody wants to raise rates to generate cash for upgrades. Municipal fiber i…

Was it debt-financed? Interesting. I like the Stockholm model.

Yes.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#185

Post by jkingsbery » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

davexunit wrote: post #129

This is a tangent but Charlemont is a nice little town situated at the foot of an Applachian mountain along the very scenic route 2. It's well worth driving up and over the mountain (through Florida... the town) into North Adams if you're ever in the area.

I went to college at Williams. We would sometimes drive back from track meets in Boston through Charlemont and Florida, and I always thought there was something cruel about seeing a sign for "Florida" when it was 10 deg (F) outside..

Agreed though, it's a nice drive, and a nice area of the country to visit!

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#186

Post by jkingsbery » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

A few things I don't get (genuinely, I wish someone would explain to me):

1. Why would the town pay Comcast for Comcast to wire up the town, when Comcast would then turn around and charge residents? It seems like if Comcast wants to provide customers, they should make the investment, no?

2. If Verizon DSL is in town, how is there a monopoly? Would Comcast wiring the town prevent another provider from also wiring the town (in whole or in part)?

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#187

Post by tcoff91 » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #169

theptip wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never seen "panacea" used by anyone except those opposed to any public infrastructure This is a good point; seems like an isolated demand for rigor. The bar we should be aiming to be above is "better than Comcast", which is a quite low standard. > Corruption is simply something that has to be fought, period, but we do have the tools to do so more easily at the local government level then for more widely dist…

> This is a good point; seems like an isolated demand for rigor. The bar we should be aiming to be above is "better than Comcast", which is a quite low standard. Is it really? Compared to what? If the government-run train I use to get to work were as reliable as the Comcast service I've had in the past, I'd be so so happy. I'd cry with happiness. Where do people live that they think Comcast is as bad as it gets in te…

how on earth does it make sense to compare a rail network to an ISP?

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#188

Post by dugmartin » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #53

ghaff wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that small rural towns can be pretty hard to get broadband in from anyone, Comcast included. These towns exist for the most part because people want space and relative quiet. I'd also note that about 10% of the people in the town participated in the vote and the final vote was fairly close. Hopefully it works out because options aren't great if you can't get Verizon or Comcast in much of the Northeast. (…

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It's obvious that some people simply prefer to live in areas of relatively sparse population. What is in question are the benefits of imposing cumbersome governance structures on situations that don't require them. In a rural USA context, basic health and safety minimums are adequately enforced by the county. In some locations there might be a sewer & water district with part-time local admini…

Here are a couple of reasons for town government:

1. Massachusetts got rid of county government in Western Mass in the late 1990s. There are some quasi-county offices like the sheriff and a regional cooperative to handle some planning and permitting but everything else is handled at the town or state level. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Massachuse...

2. Town meeting, an annual event where everyone has a chance to speak and vote, is deeply ingrained in civic life. Its the last vestige of direct democracy and a good way to end a long winter. Every dollar that the town will spend for the year is voted on and any resident can speak on any item (warrant article) presented.

I live one town to the east of the town in the article btw and I was able to speak and help vote down a warrant article at the last town meeting to add town regulations for WISPs.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#189

Post by dugmartin » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

tupshin wrote: post #19

walrus01 wrote: post #4

1300 residents? How many individual premises? That is a rather small scan gpon project. Hope they hire someone with a clue and experience to build and run it, there is not a lot of Venn diagram overlap between municipal managers and network engineers. I do hope they realize that if they want to do everything themselves, they'll still need transport links to the nearest major IX point, and IP transit upstreams. I don'…

Good points, but it's worth noting that Charlemont has fiber deployed through the main (rural) highway as part of the Massachusetts broadband act and MBI(Massachusetts broadband institute). https://broadband.masstech.org/about-mbi https://broadband.masstech.org/news-and-updates/map-gallery/... This should make it substantially easier to get connected and serviced.

I'm one town over from Charlemont and I can look out my window and see a (dark) fiber termination at a town owned building courtesy of MBI. It will probably never carry traffic as we are "fully served" by Comcast with plans that deliver 1/8 the download speed and 1/200 the upload speed at the same cost Charlemont will pay.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#190

Post by rayiner » Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

jkingsbery wrote: post #186

A few things I don't get (genuinely, I wish someone would explain to me): 1. Why would the town pay Comcast for Comcast to wire up the town, when Comcast would then turn around and charge residents? It seems like if Comcast wants to provide customers, they should make the investment, no? 2. If Verizon DSL is in town, how is there a monopoly? Would Comcast wiring the town prevent another provider from also wiring the…

> 1. Why would the town pay Comcast for Comcast to wire up the town, when Comcast would then turn around and charge residents? It seems like if Comcast wants to provide customers, they should make the investment, no?

A franchise agreement typically involves Comcast paying the municipality. 5% of gross revenues is standard.[1]

> 2. If Verizon DSL is in town, how is there a monopoly? Would Comcast wiring the town prevent another provider from also wiring the town (in whole or in part)?

No. Exclusive franchises are illegal under federal law. However, most municipalities do not have ISPs clamoring to build. For example, there was a lot of press coverage when Baltimore renewed its "exclusive" franchise with Comcast.[2] Of course it's not exclusive--it's just that nobody else has ever asked to build a network in Baltimore:

> “We’ve, in fact, asked other cable operators if they’re interested in coming into the city and, so far, nobody else is,” says Minda Goldberg, a chief solicitor in the city’s Law Department.

[1] E.g. the county where I live: https://www.aacounty.org/departments/oit/forms-and-publicati... (Section 6.1).

[2] http://www.wypr.org/post/why-comcast-one-and-only-cable-and-...