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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#181

Post by gnicholas »

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> If I were the insurance companies, I'd be putting pressure on the car companies

And also give car owners an incentive to keep their keys safer, given how many vehicles out there are vulnerable to this. Just fixing this for new cars is only half the solution.

I remember back in the 80s my parents got a discount on their insurance for installing a third brake light in the back window of their old Camaro. If my insurance gave me a discount, I'd get a faraday cage for my keys. I'm considering doing it anyway, even though my house is pretty far from my driveway, and we have cameras.

I've searched for nice-looking faraday cages but haven't found anything good. I think there's a market for fashionable key/phone faraday cages, between this car theft issue and the push to digital detox.

EDIT: curious why this is downvoted? I'm not saying that this shouldn't be fixed by car manufacturers going forward, but we need to do something about the millions of cars on the road already. Is there another solution that would make more sense? Or is there something I'm missing here?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#182

Post by dsfyu404ed »

stronglikedan wrote: post #153
jamescostian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

How does she unlock her front door?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#183

Post by JustSomeNobody »

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

Insurance companies will just raise rates and be done with it.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#184

Post by siffland »

There is a lot of great technical discussions here of ways to possibly solve the issue. The real problem points back to the lackluster security the auto industry is used to. Only if some sort of accountability or software security testing requirements are enforced this will get fixed.

They have to have a mandatory recall if your Audi accelerates quickly by itself (that was in the early 80's i think), but no recall for a possible vulnerability in a jeep where someone can hack into the machine and control the acceleration (and other items).

This would be worse with centrally controlled autonomous vehicles, they are always sending and receiving data. Image the firmware on your car not being updated after 2 years and being stuck with the still open vulnerabilities.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#185

Post by gmiller123456 »

Reedx wrote: post #107

The article recommends putting your fob upstairs or as far away as possible, but that seems like false security. What's considered a safe distance? How far away can they pick up the signal?

There really is no safe distance. A better antenna will be able to pick up the signal no matter how weak.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#186

Post by gmiller123456 »

toyg wrote: post #120
Reedx wrote: post #107

The article recommends putting your fob upstairs or as far away as possible, but that seems like false security. What's considered a safe distance? How far away can they pick up the signal?

Measure how far away your car unlocks, then keep the keys as far from external walls as that. But to be honest it’s easier to keep them in a metal box that shuts properly. That’s what i do (although my fob still needs interaction, so i should be a bit safer, in theory). Also consider that keyless cars actually still have a way to enter, be it physical or remote: garage-supplied universal keys and software. VWs for ex…

The criminals will be using more sensitive equipment than what the car is, so "Just far enough way that the car doesn't pick it up" is bad advice.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#188

Post by heavenlyblue »

toss1 wrote: post #128
dawnerd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sounds reasonable to me. Either of those situations should already be solved. My car at least yells if the key goes away when the car is on and if you’re dumb enough to keep driving and that’s kinda on you.

No, it is not reasonable for the car to stop suddenly without the key. Even if it stops by going into an emergency limp mode, this could seriously endanger the occupants by leaving them in a dangerous traffic situation, a dangerous location, or with other issues. This is why every car company has examined it and chosen to not do it. This feature actually saved huge inconvenience for us once. While visiting the other…

Well, it means that a simple presence of a key in the vicinity of a car isn’t enough to answer the question of “will this key be present there” by the ene of the journey.

It means the key has to he inserted somewhere. That makes it both safe and predictable.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#189

Post by tyingq »

cronix wrote: post #158
nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years.

An timeout that goes into idle mode until it detects some movement, would be less hassle.

It still leaves a small window of opportunity for abuse, but seems like a decent middle ground.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#190

Post by tqkxzugoaupvwqr »

jakobegger wrote: post #171
figers wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Tesla requires a pin to drive like a phone

That was rolled out in a recent update, right? I think the over-the-air updates is one of the big advantages that Tesla has right now. They can respond quickly to critical vulnerabilities like that. I wonder how fast other car manufacturers are going to catch up? Volvo recently announced that they are working on an Android based system, but it's not going to be rolled out before 2020.

I dread the day when cars update over night. Drivers become testers, and anyone participating in traffic (aka everyone) has to fear a minor point release introduces a bug that might kill them.
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