Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost • Hacker News Board

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#181

Post by lucozade » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

As a senior executive at a financial institution, and a father of a daughter, you may not be surprised to hear that I don't agree with this characterisation.

The article focuses on the self-preservation concerns and it would be a lie to suggest that there's no CYA involved.

But it's not the only dynamic. As a senior exec I both legally represent my employer and am seen to represent it by many employees. If how I act or communicate is misconstrued this could have far reaching consequences.

But more important to both of these (because the real risk of something going pear-shaped isn't that large), is the effect that, seemingly inconsequential, actions can have on the recipient.

As an example, a mentee of mine received an email from a senior colleague asking her to go for drinks. She asked my advice as she felt obliged to go but didn't want to give the wrong impression. She was quite concerned. Turns out, he had invited a number of people who had performed well on a project but had omitted to be clear about why they were invited. Entirely innocent, easily misconstrued.

In my view, if senior folk get more thoughtful about their actions, it's likely to be net positive. There may be some unintended consequences (there usually are) but I don't believe the real risk is especially high.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#182

Post by repolfx » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #31

This is cowardice. Rational cowardice, perhaps, but still cowardice nonetheless. > “Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.” This reveals so much about the mentality of the people being interviewed. The statistics of false rape accusations do not justify this concern. I would expect that an industry that copes wi…

You're assuming those stats are correct. I've seen very different stats that say the problem is huge.

But realistically, regardless of what the stats are, if you read news stories about powerful men being shot down through false or trivial accusations every day, stats aren't going to be the main thing on your mind, are they?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#183

Post by mikelyons » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:44 PM UTC

csense wrote: post #43

hodgesrm wrote: post #38

> Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.” It's kind of astonishing how long it takes some people see this obvious answer. Expert hint: It also solves a lot of other workplace issues as well.

How does that protect you from false accusations?

Also isn't it the assholes getting all the consentual sex? It's the niceguys getting the rape accusations. Women are telling us in the media and also in person how they always regret sex with niceguys.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#184

Post by loxs » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

brodo wrote: post #16

It’s scary that this is done by people who earn money by managing risk. They came to the conclusion that this is the smartest way to operate. That should not be taken lightly.

Or maybe, plain simple, they are right?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#185

Post by berbec » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #89

netcan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We never really had "innocent until proven guilty" in these circumstances. Legally sure, but courts have little involvement even now. Until recently, the women/victim side was assumed guilty... still are in many places/circumstances. We're leaving judge and jury duty to the public, social media, old media, individuals and (above all) corporate policy. None of these operate on a presumption of innocence.

> We never really had "innocent until proven guilty" in these circumstances. Legally sure, but courts have little involvement even now. > Until recently, the women/victim side was assumed guilty... still are in many places/circumstances. The victim being "assumed guilty" is just an awkward phrasing of "innocent until proven guilty" for the perpetrator. What do you see as the difference?

I see the difference in the way the victim and perpetrator are treated.

If someone robs your house and you see them running away, television strapped to your back, you call the police and give testemony. You say what you saw and the jury judges on the merits of the case.

What doesn't happen, in a robbery, is the defense team lining up a slew of witnesses talking about all the times you left your house unlocked, all the times you invited other suspicious people over, all the times you sold something on Craigslist and all the times you Googled the price of the TV that got stolen. The defence doesn't use this testemony to show that you really wanted to give your TV away, and it wasn't actually stolen, and even if it was, weren't you sorta asking for it anyway?

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#186

Post by mikelyons » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #148

buboard wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is cowardice. That's offensive. These men have the right to do displays of virtue (such as only talking with an open door). Why do you presume that men must risk their jobs ? It sounds like some some macho-requirement.

> Why do you presume that men must risk their jobs ? It sounds like some some macho-requirement. One of the cornerstones of their entire industry accounting for the uncertainty of the future. They're already risking their jobs (and, indeed, their companies) every day. Contrast that with a statistically insignificant number of false accusations. If they are truly afraid of false accusations (like they say) rather than…

You should take the time to learn why your argument is so flaccid and insubstantial.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#187

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

mikelyons wrote: post #183

csense wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that protect you from false accusations?

Also isn't it the assholes getting all the consentual sex? It's the niceguys getting the rape accusations. Women are telling us in the media and also in person how they always regret sex with niceguys.

> Also isn't it the assholes getting all the consentual sex?

No.

> It's the niceguys getting the rape accusations.

Also, very much no.

> Women are telling us in the media and also in person how they always regret sex with niceguys.

Never heard that. Heard a lot of women say they regret involvement, physical and otherwise, with assholes, though.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#188

Post by berbec » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #174

kajecounterhack wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hyperbole. Some easy ways to check IRL: Do the women in your life not check their routes when walking when it's dark out? Do the men? Do women try to bow out gracefully from relationships even if the onus shouldn't be on them, sometimes from fear of men potentially harming them? Do men do this at all? Do you tell your daughter to watch out for predators before college? Do you tell your son the same thing, or…

Men do fear dark alleys yes, where did you get the idea that they don't? Stranger rape is exceptionally rare. Rapes are usually by people who the victim already knows. Being mugged by some drug abuser on the other hand is a genderless crime and a fair bit more common. Do women try to bow out gracefully from relationships even if the onus shouldn't be on them, sometimes from fear of men potentially harming them? Do me…

"That's what the entire Bloomberg article is about! Yes, men apparently now routinely bow out gracefully from relationships with women, because they fear the woman will harm them."

And the article is showing this because it is a massive, unheard of change.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#189

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #2

Personal opinion - the lack of a "innocent until proven guilty" judicial system when it comes to sexual harassment claims is what has caused much of the fear of women. Colleges, businesses, and online communities almost always simply believe the victim, and even if a trial should occur and the accused is vindicated, the accused has already been fired, expelled, or crucified by public opinion. The records of the accus…

I saw someone speaking in this way once; they were immediately accused of maintaining and cultivating the "rape culture" and seemed to get more heat than the supposed offender.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#190

Post by faissaloo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #5

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

If we saw women as equals they would be offended or feel violated. It's best that we don't do that.