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Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

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Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#181

Post by inapis »

village-idiot wrote: post #91
will_brown wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Far better to let parents decide, so when they get it wrong we can learn from it, and don't all get it wrong at once. The problem is the disease is growing in epidemic proportions, no one is learning from mistakes. The government got it wrong sure, but let the doctors prescribe the diet and government won’t dictate the diet only mandate following doctor prescribed treatment/diet (and this too I know has flaws). But…

Americans have by and large followed the recommendations of the government: meat and saturated fat consumption is down, and we eat way more “heart healthy” whole grains and polyunsaturated seed (excuse me, “vegetable”) oils. Lots of people followed the advice, because lots of people wanted to be healthy. The advice was just garbage. I was under the impression that parents could not decline life saving treatments for…

Honestly curious, where should a layman go to for nutrition advice if they can’t rely on their government?

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#182

Post by cco »

parliament32 wrote: post #170
GeekyBear wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost at least that much weight after cutting the sugar and refined carbs out of my diet, without any fasting or increase in physical activity. I did take up cooking my food from scratch as a hobby, so I was avoiding processed foods and eating out as well.

It's ridiculous just how terrible refined carbohydrates are for people. There are countless accounts of people losing weight and getting healthier by simply reducing refined sugars in their diet. It's surprising that this isn't common knowledge yet, although I guess we're fighting Big Sugar here. I field countless questions about diet on a regular basis, and honestly the #1 tip isn't about calorie reduction or low ca…

This always surprises me as cutting out refined and/or unrefined carbohydrates has no effect on my weight.

The only thing that moves my weight down is reducing calories or increasing activity while maintaining the same caloric intake. I suppose it's entirely possible these people are doing the former and just don't know it.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#183

Post by gamblor956 »

GeekyBear wrote: post #167
jaegerpicker wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most exercise based weight loss isn't about the actual exercise it's about the changes the intense exercise makes to your body that causes you to burn more calories while resting. Exercise often tunes your body to burn calories at a higher rate as you gain muscle and / or increase muscle health which requires more energy to support even while resting. So while you don't NEED exercise to lose weight it certainly is a…

Some recent research contradicts those ideas. Contestants on an extreme weight loss television reality show saw their resting metabolism drop after a rigorous program of exercise. >The group as a whole on average burned 2,607 calories per day at rest before the competition, which dropped to about 2,000 calories per day at the end. Six years later, calorie burning had slowed further to 1,900 per day, as reported in th…

That research on the biggest loser participants has since been disproven. Sorry can't pull up those studies easily by mobile do I'll try to update wheni can.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#184

Post by GreaterFool »

From what I've read about starving yourself vs fasting and my own experience 800-calories sounds like HELL.

I can fast for 2 weeks no problem (although that's kinda long and I wouldn't do it if I didn't have enough body fat to sustain it. If you're skinny and don't have fat to spare better not stretch it unnecessarily).

I'm eating keto and I usually only eat once a day.

Fasting feels good. Starving yourself feel horrible.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#185

Post by ak39 »

matt4077 wrote: post #180
ak39 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand.

It's a joke based on the perception of crackpotishhness I got from OP's advice.

I admit that it does sound crackpotish [sic] - I am the OP.

Is this better? ->

The common understanding of T2DM is that it is a problem of sugar and therefore diet. That's only half of the equation of the physiology leading to T2DM. We have to also understand the cause of excess free circulating blood sugar and excess calories: muscle cells that have lost their ability to receive sugar. Muscle atrophy and poor muscle composition has to be the second half of understanding and therefore part of management of T2DM.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#186

Post by msiyer »

nradov wrote: post #145
msiyer wrote: post #110

My mother suffered Type-2 diabetes for almost 20 years. I put her on an extremely strict raw food diet three months ago and stopped injecting insulin. Her fasting blood sugar level is now in the 90-110 mg/dL range. I now give her some steamed potatoes also. I too follow the same diet to give her company. Elimination of oil, sugar and dairy has helped, I believe. She is a vegetarian, so flesh was never in the picture.…

I'm glad your mother is improving, but there's no real evidence that raw vegetables are better for blood sugar levels than cooked vegetables.

Raw fruits are what I feed her. No vegetables at all. I started giving her some steamed potatoes recently. Bananas have become her staple food.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#187

Post by lhl »

gamblor956 wrote: post #183
GeekyBear wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some recent research contradicts those ideas. Contestants on an extreme weight loss television reality show saw their resting metabolism drop after a rigorous program of exercise. >The group as a whole on average burned 2,607 calories per day at rest before the competition, which dropped to about 2,000 calories per day at the end. Six years later, calorie burning had slowed further to 1,900 per day, as reported in th…

That research on the biggest loser participants has since been disproven. Sorry can't pull up those studies easily by mobile do I'll try to update wheni can.

Every time the Biggest Loser study (PMC4989512) gets cited someone pops up and mentions that it's been disproven but I've never seen any citation or followup. In fact, from my research I've seen lots of studies that show that there are long term metabolic changes (PMC6033771) related to adaptive thermogenesis/fat oxidization that is a fat-free mass independent effect on REE (doi: 10.3945/ajcn.115.109173).

Other studies seem to show that the lowered RMR doesn't seem to happen either doing a ketogenic diet (PMC5816424) or with ADF (PMC5042570) vs CR. I also think that the Biggest Loser results are in large part so unsuccessful due to their "crash diet" nature and the lack of any healthy habits being built for maintenance.

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4989512/

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6033771/

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26399868

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816424/

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5042570/

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#188

Post by lhl »

mattmanser wrote: post #168
cowpewter wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This diet sounds miserable. You'd be hungry all the time. I would also much rather eat low-carb (and I do, I am a T2 diabetic that eats a ketogenic diet). Which sounds more sustainable? Drinking 800 calories of milk and juice every day, or eating real food like steak and broccoli, or chicken with brussel sprouts, or bacon and eggs? I am losing weight and reducing my A1c eating about 1300 calories of real food each da…

A recent analysis posted here claimed that low carb, high animal protein/fat was the unhealthiest diet long term, resulting in a 4 year drop in life expectancy, compared to a 1 year drop with a high carb diet. Low carb looks to be dangerous for your body long term if you have too much meat. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... According to a recent documentary I saw on the BBC about this ve…

Obviously that publication didn't go over well with the keto crowd, and they found a lot to pick apart (See 1 and 2). The most relevant critiques:

Methodology-wise, the prospective study seemed pretty poor

* Those people filled out questionnaires on their eating patterns on two occasions, six years apart. Their health was followed up for 25 years, allowing for factors that might alter the results, such as smoking, income and diabetes. (the assumption presumably being that they ate the same for the rest of their lives? IMO this seems to make any results pretty much worthless)

* low carb in this study is defined as "low carbohydrate consumption (* The PURE study was cited as part of the meta-analysis but another analysis in the Lancet actually came to the findings that: "Higher saturated fat intake was associated with lower risk of stroke (quintile 5 vs quintile 1, HR 0·79 [95% CI 0·64–0·98], ptrend=0·0498). Total fat and saturated and unsaturated fats were not significantly associated with risk of myocardial infarction or cardiovascular disease mortality." https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

* The "years in life expectancy" is very unusual - usually what's presented is relative risk or hazard ratio and absolute risk. This can be found in the data - from the ARIC study, the HR for high carb was 1.16 and for "low" carb was 1.37 - the annual death rate was 1.63%, so the absolute risk was a difference from 1.38% vs 1.88%. These calculations, and a full analysis of the article is available here: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2018/08/low-carb-diets-could-shor...

* I noticed that one of the authors listed is Willett, who invented the Mediterranean diet as we know it, and Sarah Seidelmann, the lead author is an outspoken vegan advocate, so it's worth keeping bias in mind when looking at the results. Sadly, the world of nutritional science (especially the epidemiological arm seems to really be as much about personalities as science (part of Ancel Keys' legacy, I suppose)

Actually, since I'm a bit tired of listing out points here are a few other interesting rebuttals that are primarily interesting because they point to all the pitfalls of coming to conclusions from observational studies and meta-analyses (and why nutritional reporting is simply the worst):

* https://cluelessdoctors.com/2018/08/17/when-bad-science-can-...

* https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/low-carbs-mortality-john-scho...

* https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/20180...

* https://anhinternational.org/2018/08/22/scientific-attack-on...

* https://asianwithoutrice.com/making-low-carb-a-murderer-part...

1: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/98kx1w/all_nit...

2: https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/981ync/dietary...

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#189

Post by owlmirror »

mattmanser wrote: post #168
cowpewter wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This diet sounds miserable. You'd be hungry all the time. I would also much rather eat low-carb (and I do, I am a T2 diabetic that eats a ketogenic diet). Which sounds more sustainable? Drinking 800 calories of milk and juice every day, or eating real food like steak and broccoli, or chicken with brussel sprouts, or bacon and eggs? I am losing weight and reducing my A1c eating about 1300 calories of real food each da…

A recent analysis posted here claimed that low carb, high animal protein/fat was the unhealthiest diet long term, resulting in a 4 year drop in life expectancy, compared to a 1 year drop with a high carb diet. Low carb looks to be dangerous for your body long term if you have too much meat. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... According to a recent documentary I saw on the BBC about this ve…

The study categorized everyone who ate below 40% of their calories into the low carb group. That's a lot of people who simply eat SAD. It would be much more interesting if they grouped the subjects into more categories. But I suspect the data for that simply isn't good enough.

Re: Type 2 diabetes: NHS to offer 800-calorie diet treatment

#190

Post by nimmy »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #142
garenp wrote: post #92

About 3 years ago (late 2015 now) I was quite overweight, had a knee injury that limited my mobility (stairs mostly) and had a fasting glucose and post-meal readings that indicated I was nearly pre-diabetic (T2). So, I cut out out all sugary drinks, refined carbs, late night eating (!!) and tried various intermittent fasting / time restricted feeding techniques (5:2, alternate day, one-meal-a-day) and after about 3.5…

> I'm now down well over 60+lbs without having put in hardly any effort to exercise (occasional walking) - pretty stunning to me. Losing weight despite not exercising isn't surprising. Exercise, even intense cardio, burns far fewer calories than most people think. I'm about 240 lbs, 5'8", 36 years old, and according to this calculator [0], if I ran a 5k at a fast-paced 10 mph (6 minute mile), I'd only burn about 250…

I was curious to check out your source because I'm 5'8, 130 ish pounds and my 10 min mile 5k only burns a little bit less than 250 calories, which I thought wasn't a big enough calorie difference for the difference in weight. I put your stats in for an 18 minute run and it came up as 350 calories. Am I putting something in wrong?
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