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A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

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Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#181

Post by Benjammer »

danesparza wrote: post #56
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #21

>Technologists building these products and writers observing the tech revolution were naïve, he said. >"We thought we could control it,” Mr. Anderson said. “And this is beyond our power to control. This is going straight to the pleasure centers of the developing brain. This is beyond our capacity as regular parents to understand." A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all kn…

"A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all know this." Hell, I'd argue that many 40-50 year old brains clearly don't stand a chance against a trained data scientist.

Don't stop there...

I'd argue a prime-of-their-life 34 year old _data scientist_ doesn't stand a change _against their own algorithms_ if they immerse themselves. It's addiction.

We need to stop acting like it is "weak-minded" people (children is a dog-whistle for this) who are susceptible to tech addiction.

The idea of "standing a chance" is literally like saying you can consciously control your dopamine receptors to actively limit dopamine uptake in your brain.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#182

Post by borkt »

trynumber9 wrote: post #3

> There is a looming issue Ms. Stecher sees in the future: Her husband, who is 39, loves video games and thinks they can be educational and entertaining. She does not. I'm still peeved so many people hate video games categorically. Age of Empires & Civilization got me into history as a kid and I checked out dozens of books as a result. Plus, the reason I ended up wanting to learn more about computers was to make game…

Studying ancient history and reading books have been thought to be a frivolous waste of time by previous generations as well. It all comes from your frame of reference.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#183

Post by GVIrish »

danesparza wrote: post #60
kartan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are specifically designed to function like a slot machine. I work in the gambling industry, making literally slot machines. Slot machines are heavily regulated and there is a lot of "engagement" tricks that can not be used in the gambling industry. The kind of trick that Candy Crush will use. The dangerous side of gambling is for people that think that they can "win money". But the games themselves are kind of…

You've gotten me wondering: Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? Is that a state-by-state regulation? A federal regulation? And does the regulating code specifically mention physical machines? Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

> You've gotten me wondering: Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines?

Probably because the problem is not perceived as bad enough to get regulated yet. The industry was getting dangerously close to this when there were all those cases of kids racking up huge bills through in-app purchases on iPhones, but that has died down enough that it's not on the radar anymore. I think if the games industry gets too aggressive again, regulation will sweep in.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#184

Post by baybal2 »

jackhack wrote: post #82
danesparza wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all know this." Hell, I'd argue that many 40-50 year old brains clearly don't stand a chance against a trained data scientist.

That's correct -- it's adults too. And the odds are against the average person. But I must point out it's not just data scientists we are up against -- it's psychologists, psychiatrists and medical doctors, addiction experts, experts in gaming theory, etc. All are employed in order to help make software and devices more "compelling". Remember when they used to ask how "sticky" is the app? Careful timing of rewards, t…

A repost from half year ago:

I lived in Russia during the time when slot machines were literally standing in the open on the streets, and yes, mentally infirm people were wasting themselves on them. Normal people did not.

It requires one to completely lack logic reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a slot machine is to waste his or her time and money.

The same way, it requires a particular lack of basic logical reasoning to not to understand that the the purpose of a smartphone app throwing 20 bling bling popups per second on you isn't different.

You don't need to be a genius to understand that clickfarming app must be removed, and to do so.

My former high school classmate who did not manage to leave Russia is running a typical "smartphone fixer" kiosk. He said few years ago that the most common request he gets from people is to "remove Google nagware and lock, block or delete Google Pay" so their child will never ever buy anything "in that Internet thing"

At least Chinese and Russian parents understood long ago that Google's business is all about "pocket slot machines (this is how people really call smartphones there)." Why wouldn't American parents do that too?

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#185

Post by piyh »

themagician wrote: post #46
fhood wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Challenge is not the issue. Dark Souls is bloody difficult, but that doesn't mean that I feel like I've been using my brain after playing it. Video games are awesome, but they provide too much stimulation and instant gratification for little kids. I don't think TV is much better, but video games are way more entertaining than TV.

Dude, playing Dark Souls requires more brain power than the vast majority of most peoples’ jobs. If my kid was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed. Hell, if I was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed with myself.

Difficulty != brain power requirement.

Flipping heads on a coin 20 times in a row is difficult, but doesn't require thinking. Flipping a water bottle to land is difficult, but doesn't require critical/analytical thinking skills.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#186

Post by wlesieutre »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #172
wlesieutre wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to go back down to a feature phone, but if you said "I want to bike more places instead of driving my car everywhere" it would be reasonable to not want to buy an $80,000 luxury sedan that you love to zoom around in. Unfortunately Apple has decided that's the only car they're going to make.

Well, it's a good thing there are alternatives to Apple. Their products are grotesquely overpriced anyway.

My main priorities are size, photo quality, and respecting my privacy. I haven't seen a lot of options there, but if someone else is still making a phone that's as good as the iPhone SE I'd love to hear about it.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#187

Post by ConceptJunkie »

medobs41 wrote: post #79
danesparza wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've gotten me wondering: Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? Is that a state-by-state regulation? A federal regulation? And does the regulating code specifically mention physical machines? Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

Why AREN'T certain games subject to the same regulations as slot machines? I can answer for the US: Games aren’t subject to regulation because for the past few decades one party has made it their goal to destroy regulatory power to allow the wealthy to enrich themselves. One party in the US has been completely captured by billionaires and corporations. This started in the 1970s around the time the Koches founded the…

Translation: "But muh 1% and racism. Reeeeeeeee."

Both parties are heavily influenced by and for the rich. But only one party is obsessed with identity politics, and it's not the one you're implying.

Your side has far more to lose than the side of Fox News and Limbaugh if the fairness doctrine were to return. Because for every one of them, there are 10 media sources slanted in the other direction.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#188

Post by tspike »

Tehchops wrote: post #30

I think it's less about the screen time, and more about what's on the screen. Echoing some of the existing comments: Games and sites today are vastly different than they were 20 years ago. Games like Civilization, Quake, Diablo, C&C, Mortal Kombat, Tony Hawk etc... were definitely addictive. But modern games like Fortnite and Clash of Clans are not engineered the same way. They are specifically designed to function l…

Yes. It's irritating to me to hear screen time constantly discussed as a monolith. For example, I have no issue with my son playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild. He gets to poke around and experiment and explore and it has sparked a lot of imaginative play, curiosity and interesting conversations.

Likewise, it's fine if he wants to watch the videos we've taken of our family, it helps him to remember relatives we don't get to see very often.

Conversely, I have ZERO tolerance for advertising. I am increasingly convinced that marketing is the source of a majority of modern society's ills and I don't want it anywhere near his brain until he's able to properly comprehend its purpose.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#189

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

jimejim wrote: post #57

This has always been a form of Luddism. Tech is inevitable. I view tech similarly to how I view sex-ed in 2018: it's been proven that if you do abstinence only education then bad things happen (teen pregnancies, stds, etc...). Your kids are going to grow up to be adults with bad tech habits if you don't start teaching them how to use it responsibly and protect themselves early. Help them find good content. Have days…

I don't think it's accurate to call this a form of Luddism, when the whole point of the article is that it is specifically Silicon Valley technologists that have come to the conclusion that this tech is a net negative for children.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#190

Post by Wowfunhappy »

medobs41 wrote: post #90
BoiledCabbage wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm still peeved so many people hate video games categorically. I'm more annoyed that everytime video games come up, someone brings up Civilization as a strawman to argue. 99% of games aren't Civilization. We all know people are talking about that 99%. The article even calls out that the parents make exceptions for some educational games/screen time. And yet rather than legitimately engage and address peoples conce…

I spent a lot of time playing Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? and The Legend of Zelda. I have warm memories of both. But I didn’t learn anything from Zelda- it was pure entertainment and connection to popular culture. I can still hum the theme song. I did learn some stuff from Carmen Sandiego.

Zelda games force you to think critically. I wouldn't consider it directly educational, but it's not mindless either.
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