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Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

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Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're discussing the clear and defined understanding of what hate speech is. You lost the thread of the conversation the moment someone confronted your belief that it doesn't have a clear definition. The reason you lost the thread is because you're struggling with the internal contradiction of your belief.

So, (if the definition is so clear) do you think claiming capital punishment should be legal is hate speech, as the person I was originally replying to has claimed elsewhere in this subthread?

In a vacuum, I would not say that's hate speech. But there are complexities in the advocacy for capital punishment in the current context of the US's criminal justice system.

Our carceral system is widely recognized to be deeply racist in practice and in philosophy. This being the case, it's not an unbelievable stretch to say that when someone holds a belief in capital punishment, there is a good chance they also have parallel beliefs that rationalize capital punishment as a functional part of that racist system.

In that case, such advocacy is part of their rhetorical framework of hate speech. The clarity of the definition of hate speech gives us to see the context of that.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#182

"Tech companies" is just way too broad a designation to use here. No one is seriously asking Apple to police hate speech in iMessage or Facetime, for instance, or Verizon to police hate speech in SMS. No one expects AT&T to police hate speech in a phone call. What people are concerned about are the newsfeeds and timelines, specifically. Companies like Facebook and Twitter and YouTube love to pretend that their newsfe…

>Making decisions about what content your audience sees is an act of publishing, even if it's executed via complex algorithm.

This is true. And it is more difficult than most people want to even come close to dealing with. Let's say that you wave a wand and you have a bot that will 100% eliminate every racist claim ever made on the service, burying it and showing it to no one. You have just made it impossible to talk about racism. By killing the discussion, you will enlarge the groups of people who would never think to use a racial epithet, but who harbor deep convictions that different races have genetically-driven differences in capability and some need coddling. That is racism. But you can't even point that out, let alone discuss why it is factually wrong, on a sanitized platform.

On a sanitized Twitter, Megan Phelps-Roper and her sister would still be members of Westover Baptist Church, protesting gay funerals and spewing vitriol. They might not be able to do it on Twitter, but they'd be doing it elsewhere. Because Twitter was NOT sanitized, and because it WAS possible to confront people with total refutation and challenge to their most closely-held beliefs, Megan Phelps-Roper was convinced that her own position was wrong and destructive. And because of that lack of censorship, that permission to offend and call out, Westover Baptist has 2 fewer people working daily to hurt others. Anyone calling for a sanitized online platform is calling for a death of discussion, a death of social progress, and a death of any opportunity for the ignorant to learn.

In the 1960s, it was profane, disgusting, and obscene to suggest that interracial marriage should be allowed. It wasn't just 'a different opinion.' It was a view that made people sick, that riled up violence, that led to name-calling and hate. And it was only because the public forum was able to bear that hate, those insults, etc, that progress eventually happened.

Eric Schmidt in his book 'A New Digital Age' makes the argument that people like himself should take the reigns and kill discussion so that he might make the decisions for society. Were he around in the 60s, he would be fighting to lock down discussions about interracial marriage. He, and many like him, see the public having heated discussions and roiling in conflict and conclude they are mindless and incapable of policing themselves. This is a view as old as time. It's Conservatism. The old kind. The kind that backed kings, pharoahs, chieftains, etc. The kind that said some people are simply Better and destined to lead, while others are Lesser and destined to follow. Don't be surprised, but many are comfortable to accept that role as a follower if it means less responsibility or need to think. Conservatism died out near the end of the 18th century and through the 19th but there is no reason it couldn't re-establish itself with a fresh coat of paint and maybe with the help of some automation.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#183
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it'd at least be a few responses before someone went for the typical "got'em" style of response that inevitably relies on Missing the Point, but I guess not. I don't need to prove that to you. Even in your own odd request, you didn't even make the feeble attempt to pretend that you're running a popular media platform. We are talking about extremely popular platforms that inherently give credence to any view…

I don't in any way expect that Twitter has reviewed a tweet for content and approves of the content therein. Equally so for Facebook et al. The platforms ubiquity makes them the Hydes Park / Public Square of the modern age- if anything they should be regulated to be content neutral rather than be encouraged to silence certain viewpoints.

That's just not true though when you consider that these platforms have algorithms that will determine which posts get more visibility than others (trending is the most obvious of these). I don't think this would be even half as much of a debate if we had an electronic platform that could actually be the modern public square of the US, but instead we have only private entities attempting to provide this, and they are decidedly not protectors of free speech (that would be our government). The extension of this is that even if the government did provide such a platform, there would likely still need to be rules because as much as you like to think we have unfettered free speech, you still can't stand in the middle of the public square and call for the death of another individual or you can't shout "FIRE" in a movie theater when there is none.

If we actually had a government run system, we could ensure things like accountability for your ideas that you self publish in such a public square because the government itself would have the servers that contain the data. The constitution would limit the government from censoring this platform, but it wouldn't limit the government from implementing more effective methods of processing abuses of free speech such as libel by having an immediate record of what was said. My main point here is that it's easier to agree on what if any free speech limitations should apply if there isn't this proxy layer of "Well corporations can do whatever they want with their servers" and "Well these laws don't apply to what they said because nobody is speaking in the domain that freedom of speech applies to"

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#184
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is. Many people use it. Have you ever gone out of your way to examine it? Or do you just infer it based on your internal beliefs and limited experiences?

There's no need to assume that anyone that questions it hasn't had experiences regarding it. Just the fact that there exists in your response any implication that a lack of experience may change someone's definition of "hate speech" makes it amorphous. There may be a definition, but it being "clear" is questionable. Obviously the answer is to leave it to the courts, but then you have to consider the definitions of "a…

In order to make your points, you keep skating over the first principle: there is a clear definition.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#185
post #103

This strikes me as a timely and important sentiment. When we demand that Twitter ban anti-semitic tweets, or that Cloudflare block white supremacist websites, or that Youtube deplatform Alex Jones, we are taking the power to limit speech (which the founders felt was too important to be wielded by the government) and handing it to middle managers at software companies. The de jure rule is "Freedom of Speech shall not…

> we are taking the power to limit speech (which the > founders felt was too important to be wielded by the > government) Someone spray-paints a swastika on your car. Do you think the founders would mind if you painted it over?

Do you think they would mind if robots owned and operated by Ford patrolled the city at night and painted over swastikas on neo-Nazi's cars?

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every reply of yours so far has hinged on my definition of terms being arbitrary. I'm strictly talking about well-defined terms. Maybe you have never examined them because you never needed to interface with them in practice, or maybe you do understand them and are just arguing in bad faith to defend a more abstract belief. I won't make any assumptions about that.

If anyone's arguing in bad faith here, it's you. Power dynamics may lead to hate speech but they are not an intrinsic part of hate speech.

Hate speech specifically comes from a position and perspective of power. Stop making up your own terms.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, (if the definition is so clear) do you think claiming capital punishment should be legal is hate speech, as the person I was originally replying to has claimed elsewhere in this subthread?

In a vacuum, I would not say that's hate speech. But there are complexities in the advocacy for capital punishment in the current context of the US's criminal justice system. Our carceral system is widely recognized to be deeply racist in practice and in philosophy. This being the case, it's not an unbelievable stretch to say that when someone holds a belief in capital punishment, there is a good chance they also hav…

Who said anything about the US?

Let's imagine you work at a social media company. You see the comment: "capital punishment should be legal". You don't know anything about the carceral system of the jurisdiction the commenter lives in.

Do you remove the comment for being hate speech, or not?

But the main point is that since the other commenter reached the conclusion that this would be hate speech, and you reached the conclusion that it might be but not necessarily, it follows that the definition he or she proposed is not clear.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#188
post #143
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By these rules, you just committed an attack and violated the rights of others by saying "88". If you were banned to prevent this attack, nothing of value would be lost. Oh, "but I wasn't SAYING it" you say? Who judges whether hate speech is excused by context? Facebook interns? AI algorithms? Sorry, the algorithm has pronounced you guilty, you are now banned. That is the world you would create.

Okay, nevermind then. Nothing to be done. Thinking about this is too hard! Let's just throw in the towel folks!

Or maybe social media companies get rid of any kind of algorithmic selection. Feeds are completely ordered by date. You can follow/unfollow people who you like or dislike. If you don't want to be offended by jackasses, don't go on the public feeds.

That said, you've shot down a lot of people's arguments but I haven't seen you promote a sensible alternative. Given your personal belief framework and given the first amendment, what do you see as a solution to this problem?

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#189

There's still too many unsolved philosophical questions here. What is hate speech? What should the limits of free speech be? How do we contended with the multitude of religious, legal, and cultural differences and anomalies when policing news and thought across the world? How do we react to people weaponizing the policing of hate speech to remove free speech? I have yet to hear compelling answers to this problem, and…

>There's still too many unsolved philosophical questions here.

It's only unsolved among people who don't understand what free speech is.

There are no "compelling answers" because the problem at hand is how to maintain the positive branding of free speech while removing what it means for speech to be free.

Re: Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech is “a dangerous path”

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are those the only two options available?

Indeed. Also who defines what 'hate speech' is and isn't?

Mod does. Don't like the mod, get out!

Social networks don't control the police and jails. They have always had the right - though they neglected it because they are lazy and delusional - to moderate content on their own servers.

It's so clear to me that "one size fits all" social networks will go away. They are inherently dysfunctional. Putting everyone from terrorists to toddlers on the same forums was never a good idea.

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