Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the Finnish survive without small talk

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 208 posts

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#181

Post by nyc111 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #169
nyc111 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like I would love to live in Finland! I'm always annoyed by passengers in the bus talking loudly while I try to read my book. This is very common. Commuters are very noisy in Turkey. Also I wonder if in Finland they announce stations in public transportation. Like "next station is blah blah..." Here in Turkey in big cities they even announce stations in Turkish and in English! So annoying.

Announcements are super important for people with visual difficulties, though. I agree that there can often be far too much noise in public spaces, but that’s probably the wrong target to pick!

By the way, I see this topic as part of the fundamental human condition, that is, the neverending strife between the individual and his master, the legal organism.

Governments and their branches are legal organisms. These organisms exploit the individual. The individual has no power against his master.

In this case, the individual is the customer but he has no say about the quality of his commute. The legal organism in charge of transportation does not bother to ask its customers if they want recorded announcements of stations. The majority of the customers, probably over %90, take the same train everyday and know their stop by heart. They would get off in the right station in their sleep. They don’t need to be told where to get off. If the legal organism asked its customers if they want announcements, the majority would say "don't talk to us. Leave us alone. Let us read a book, sleep or daydream. Just don't bother us and don't try to be nice to us. Don’t make condescending announcements. Just shut up. Give us a clean, safe and fast ride and get out of the way.” But the master never asks its subjects and never listens. The individual accepts whatever the legal organism gives to him.

You may think that accepting the violation of your personal space by recorded announcements without protest is a trivial issue. But people who accept voluntarily trivial harrassments by their master will voluntarily accept big harassments. Like when the same organism will want to take his naked pictures while crossing its borders.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#182

Post by reitanqild »

wolfgke wrote: post #167
Isamu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I had to learn the same thing. Only as a young kid, but I specifically remember this experience. I think most people forget this, that you have to learn that a lot of conversation is not literal, it is opaque code for something else. I am still a pretty literal conversationalist but I can translate fluently. A friend had a great anecdote about his first meal with his girlfriend's family. The father as…

Story time: At a party of math students, the following dialogue happened between classmates (names changed): Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?" Bob: "She will come, but somewhat later. I think she will be there in half an hour." Alice: "I am not interested in whether she will come or not. If I wanted to know that information, I would simply have asked you whether she will come and if you did n…

I've trouble wrapping my head around that.

IMO Alice seems rude and even manipulative, first asking a question, then lecturing the person who answees the question in a perfectly valid way.

The normal thing to do in such a case (where I grew up and where I live now) would be to accept the answer as it 1. Answers the question at hand. 2. Is a perfect non-offensive interpretation of the intent of the question.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#183

Post by reitanqild »

nyc111 wrote: post #176
matthewmacleod wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Announcements are super important for people with visual difficulties, though. I agree that there can often be far too much noise in public spaces, but that’s probably the wrong target to pick!

This may be true. But it does not make sense to violate personal spaces of millions of people for the possibility that one blind person will be in the train. I never encountered a blind commuter but I'm sure they exist. In my country people would be extremely helpful and would tell them their stop and help them get out. To me clean and quiet public transportation is a sign of civilization.

> But it does not make sense to violate personal spaces of millions of people for the possibility that one blind person will be in the train.

What do you mean by "Violate personal spaces"?

> I never encountered a blind commuter but I'm sure they exist.

One reason might be if bo effort wss made to make public transport easy to use for people with disabilities.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#184

Post by nyc111 »

reitanqild wrote: post #183
nyc111 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be true. But it does not make sense to violate personal spaces of millions of people for the possibility that one blind person will be in the train. I never encountered a blind commuter but I'm sure they exist. In my country people would be extremely helpful and would tell them their stop and help them get out. To me clean and quiet public transportation is a sign of civilization.

> But it does not make sense to violate personal spaces of millions of people for the possibility that one blind person will be in the train. What do you mean by "Violate personal spaces"? > I never encountered a blind commuter but I'm sure they exist. One reason might be if bo effort wss made to make public transport easy to use for people with disabilities.

I was referring to @fi358's comment:

> Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against

> local customs (it resembles situation where somebody

> comes too close to my personal space). This constant

> chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts.

> I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important

> things or keep their chit-chat short, but I don't want

> to be exposed to this kind of noise about trivial

> things for hours.

Like fi358, I consider subjecting someone to unwanted noise to be same as violating their personal space by coming too close to them. To me recorded announcements that repeat and repeat mindlessly the same thing over and over again and serve no purpose is a violation of personal space.

> to make public transport easy to use for people with disabilities...

You are right of course. But someone in wheelchair and a blind person have different requirements. Where I live most busses can accommodate people with wheelchair. People also are extremely helpful to blind people. I see ordinary people helping blinds cross the street. So if a blind person boards a bus all he has to do is to tell his stop to the driver or to a passenger near him.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#185

Post by craftoman »

I love Scandinavian countries for that specific reason. People don't care about you but they will help you if you really need anything and relationships are very strong and take years to come. Here in Greece for example relationships are fake and fade from day one. You met a guy on Monday and on Friday you get an invitation to his house BUT the next Monday they pretend they haven't met you. Too much socialization leads to sociopathic disorders.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#186

Post by jaclaz »

mseidl wrote: post #47
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25

It is strange that this article sees Finland as an odd man out in terms of customer-service interactions, and it suggests the USA or the UK is the norm. I have lived in both southern Europe (where people are claimed to be more extrovert) and in Finland, and generally interacting with a "barista" or cashier in both places is exactly the same, consisting of only the words "Hello" and "Thanks". In the USA one might get…

I'm a German that lived in the USA for a while, and now that I'm back, at first the customer service was pretty bad in Germany. But I like it now. It can be pretty bad where you might have to beg the sales guy to take your money, but not being bombarded by sales people or way too much bs talking. When I was back in the US, I rented a car, and I didn't really say anything much just answered her questions, I didn't sol…

I guess it depends, I worked a short bit of time in Berlin (construction project) and among other things I was somehow the "procurement guy" even if my German is far from being good enough (we had a couple interpreters anyway).

I remember distinctly some "queer" conversations with suppliers, we had German engineers and of course approved and compliant to norms projects, in other countries if you called a hardware supplier asking for (say) 1000 hex bolts, 16 mm (M16) diameter, 100 mm long, class 8.8 grade, zinc, nach DIN 931, they would simply state if they had them available and how much they would cost, while in Germany there was always the question "What are you going to use them for?".

They were ( mind you I appreciated it, even if sometimes it was excessive) wanting to make sure that we were asking the "right" product for the intended use, and in many cases (that was waay too many years ago) we had to fax them parts of the projects so that they could make sure before even telling us if they could provide the goods.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#187

Post by jaclaz »

flurdy wrote: post #111

Norwegian living in the UK. I remember my dad when he moved over here just found the whole initial greetings and small talk with his UK colleagues really funny. And even funnier to watch his mostly Swedish colleagues struggle with the same tennis ball banter at the start of every conversation. Instead of just getting to the point straight away. I was young enough to adapt quickly, but still I struggle with insincere…

Even if it is by now rather dated, the classic about England [0] "strange" things for a foreigner remains "How to be an Alien" by George Mikes, JFYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien

[0] In England everything is different. You must understand that when people say ‘England’, they sometimes mean ‘Great Britain’ (England, Scotland and Wales), sometimes ‘the United Kingdom’ (England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland), sometimes the ‘British Isles’ (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) – but never just England.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#188

Post by jaclaz »

dudul wrote: post #13
unwind wrote: post #10

Swedish has the same saying, but it's the other way around ("tala är silver men tiga är guld", literally "talking is silver but silence is gold"). It makes more sense like that to me, but perhaps the article just got it wrong

Not just the Swedes, the same saying exists in France.

Italian: Il silenzio è d'oro, la parola d'argento.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#189

Post by jaclaz »

A bit off topic, but one of the movies I always found really interesting (without having any idea how much "realistic" it might or might not be) has been "The man wihout a past":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Past

The verbal exchanges appear so "alien" that they are highly facscinating to me.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#190

Post by wolfgke »

MichaelDickens wrote: post #172
wolfgke wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story time: At a party of math students, the following dialogue happened between classmates (names changed): Alice: "Do you know whether Carol will come to the party?" Bob: "She will come, but somewhat later. I think she will be there in half an hour." Alice: "I am not interested in whether she will come or not. If I wanted to know that information, I would simply have asked you whether she will come and if you did n…

Why did Alice want to know whether Bob knew if Carol was coming, but didn't want to know if Carol was coming? That seems like a weird thing to want to know.

> Why did Alice want to know whether Bob knew if Carol was coming, but didn't want to know if Carol was coming?

Because Alice wanted to find out whether Bob and Carol know each other well enough that Bob knows whether Carol will come or not.

Post reply on HN