Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

news.ycombinator.com

181–190 of 242 posts

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#181
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They eventually get fired because too old/too expensive. Get into management/team leadership in a way or another asap. You're probably not feeling this right now because the economy is overheated. But be wary of the next recession if you're still doing the same job - however much better - than a junior for several times their salary. (If you've specialized and valuable skills that are extremely hard to replace you sh…

> having seen the difference in productivity, I'd hire a 40+ senior over 3 juniors in a heartbeat most of the time Honestly I think it's not directly ageism, but indirectly, many people are afraid of managing people with significantly more experience or just plain older than them. So if the team lead is 35 with 10 years eng experience, they will probably be worried about a 45 y/o with 25 years eng experience who will…

To be honest, I would love to hire competent 40- 50 year old people, but I’d be torpedoing my own chances of advancement since promoting them (or hiring them in a higher position) frankly makes much more sense.

I guess I’d still do it though. We need people with experience like a drowning man needs air.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#182
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having seen the difference in productivity, I'd hire a 40+ senior over 3 juniors in a heartbeat most of the time Honestly I think it's not directly ageism, but indirectly, many people are afraid of managing people with significantly more experience or just plain older than them. So if the team lead is 35 with 10 years eng experience, they will probably be worried about a 45 y/o with 25 years eng experience who will…

> So if the team lead is 35 with 10 years eng > experience, they will probably be worried about > a 45 y/o with 25 years eng experience who will > challenge their authority and possibly prevent > them from leading the whole team the way they want. This was a huge factor at my last job, with myself and other engineers who were much more experienced than the people who were (inexplicably) placed in charge. We had a VP…

An interesting reply to the GP comment. I finished reading the GP and immediately thought "so how do you learn to effectively manage people with more experience than yourself?", and then I read this comment.

Hmm. I certainly don't want to end in the position of the manager you're referring to. I'm scared about/by the quantity of things I don't know, though, across the board, so there's that. (One of those things that are hard to sum up as good or bad, heh.)

I guess the worst-case I can think of right now, is ending up in a situation where I might think the 10% I know _is_ 100%, and the social dynamics make it difficult for those around me to show me otherwise without treading on my toes, even privately. I wonder how I might counter for situations like that.

My understanding of management is of owning a summarized, superset overview of a bunch of areas that I'm (ostensibly) coordinating. To do that effectively I need to be able to discern the difference between "implementational or otherwise safely 'losable' detail" and "piece of data I cannot effectively manage without" (literally).

This can be very tricky, especially as the analysis rules change per domain...

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#183
post #98

When I was 30, people just looked at me and assumed I was a competent software engineer because I looked exactly like a very senior software engineer, and I presented myself in that way. But I was very junior, having made a recent career change. Yet they paid me like a prince, and I rose so rapidly through the ranks that I became an executive. Now I'm 50, and my company folded and I went to the curb, and am looking f…

> remember what they do to engineers that are over 40. May I ask what do you mean by this? I'm an engineer entering my late 30's, what is it exactly that I have to prepare for by the time I enter my 40s?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN-VAdAnoZ4#t=26

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#185
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having seen the difference in productivity, I'd hire a 40+ senior over 3 juniors in a heartbeat most of the time Honestly I think it's not directly ageism, but indirectly, many people are afraid of managing people with significantly more experience or just plain older than them. So if the team lead is 35 with 10 years eng experience, they will probably be worried about a 45 y/o with 25 years eng experience who will…

> So if the team lead is 35 with 10 years eng > experience, they will probably be worried about > a 45 y/o with 25 years eng experience who will > challenge their authority and possibly prevent > them from leading the whole team the way they want. This was a huge factor at my last job, with myself and other engineers who were much more experienced than the people who were (inexplicably) placed in charge. We had a VP…

This is me right now. I'm on sabbatical while I work some stuff out, but I'll go back to that problem unless I leave the company. Most management is ~10 years younger than I am.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#186
I think you're going to be most happy running your own show.. I've seen a lot of this anyway. Open plan because the boss wants to see everyone in one spot the 3 hours he is in per year. Focus unattainable due to noise/talking. Resistance to WFH arrangements. Train young people so we can have redundancy...Old guy quits and now you have 4 people doing what 1 used to, 3 of which are looking to quit because face it, they don't want to work hard ;) Good luck my friend.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#187

I'm in my mid forties and I've been working for pay in tech since '96, so this puts me in a similar demographic like yours. I think you're being too picky and greatly limiting your job choices. I miss the days of private offices, but those days are over in any moderately cutting edge companies. You'll find offices in Cisco, Juniper and Oracle, you'll find open seating at Google, Facebook, and startups. WFH friendly c…

Actually, you won’t find offices at Oracle — they have or are moving to open space layouts for the most part.

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#188
I'm 50 and work remotely from rural Japan. I work with a good team and I genuinely like the people I work with. I'll try to respond to each of the points you make in relation to my job:

- I work from home. My wife volunteers most days so I have the place to myself most of the time. However I work in Japan and my colleagues are in the UK, so this means I often work nights. In our small apartment, it's hard to separate myself from what my wife is doing. I try my best to do work where I need to concentrate during the day and then collaborate with people during the evening. It's hard to juggle, though.

- These days lots of companies are doing office work with work at home a few days a week. We do that, but because the company is growing fast, we ran out of desks. This means that people mostly work at home and hot swap when then are in the office. The hot swapping is actually a real sore point with people as they like to have their own space at work, but you can imagine that it's hard for the company to justify having a floor 3/4 empty most of the time. Still, before I moved back to Japan, I did the WFH one or two days a week and IMHO, if you are close to your office this is really ideal -- lots of opportunity to collaborate and lots of opportunity to put your head down. In that kind of environment, personally I'm happy to have open office, hot swap setup. I differ from many people ;-)

- Meetings are a function of company culture. Some companies value them, some do not. I once worked in a company and my manager asked me what I'd like from him (NB: managers, please do this!) I said, I don't ever want to go to a meeting. Can you go to all my meetings and send me a quick email with the result? He said, No problem! (Best manager ever) When you are shopping for jobs, make sure to ask about what kinds of meetings people have and why they have them. I like companies where meetings are for disseminating information to large groups of people. I dislike companies where meetings are for collaboratively coming up with a solution. Other people like the opposite. Know what you want and find a compatible group to work with.

- Incompetent managers. Sorry, no panacea for this one. Most managers are terrible (sorry, but it's truly how I feel). It's a massively hard job, people are not trained for it and often people get into management because they want to bully people into doing what they say. I want a manager who feels their job is to remove obstacles from me so that I can concentrate on work (see point above). 90% of the time I don't get managers like that. It's hard for me to complain too much because I don't want to be a manager, even though I am very opinionated about what managers should do. Again, pre-screen your prospective employers. Specifically ask your potential manager what they think a manager should be doing. I've never met a manager who would lie about that.

- Colleagues: Let me preface this by saying again, I like my current colleagues. As I get older, though, it gets pretty difficult. I'm the oldest person in the IT department at my company. I'm double the age of most of the people (we have a lot of junior people). I remember talking to a colleague about Tenerife because we had both vacationed there. It's an amazing place, but my colleague said that they didn't see any of it because they spent an entire week in night clubs. All of the other people listening to our conversation murmured with great appreciation. The industry is growing rapidly so as you get older you often become a minority. Even though you were there first, it's you that is the "foreigner" in the group (me, especially, LOL). You have to adapt to that culture rather than expecting people to adapt to your culture. For me, that's extremely difficult. Having said that, I have worked in a small startup where nobody was under the age of 35 (and we even had a guy in his 60's) -- I was the baby in that group! There are some founders who want only experienced people and are willing to pay extra money up front to get it. Reach out through your contacts because probably you can find them.

Now, I really like working the way I work (and the day after tomorrow I'm actually going to the UK to meet and greet with the team, which I'm super excited about!) However there are tons of downsides.

- Working remotely for a non-remote team means that there is a definite power differential. People who see each other in person regularly naturally have a better rapport. As a remote person, you're always a bit of an outsider. It's easy for people to forget about including you in discussions (especially if you are in a different time zone!) There are sometimes bad actors in companies too and if someone decides to intentionally lock you out of decisions, there is practically nothing you can do about it. You are at the mercy of others. I spend a lot of my energy trying to keep my relationships working well at work -- tons more than I would need to if I worked in the office. That's why 3 days in 2 days WFH is such a nice setup (and really, I think all companies should do something similar for programmers).

Working remotely and solo is a huge risk. However, if you want to take on that risk, 40 is a really good time to do it. At 50, I've got 15 years left of my career. I need to save for retirement (and I admit to neglecting that in order to traipse around the world doing strange things). I've got savings, but if I was out of work for a year or two, it would be rather bad for me. At 40 (or earlier) you can take that risk a lot more easily because you can then put your head down and do less risky things when you are older if you need to (like me).

Especially since you are relatively young (still 25 years left of work!) and you have no children, you are pretty flexible. Earlier I've been pointing out the need to keep thinking about the work environment when interviewing. If work environment is very important to you, make sure that you value that yourself. Don't take a job for more money that has a worse environment. Maybe there's a jerk that you have to work with, but you can still get your job done acceptably -- don't give up that job. No job is going to be perfect, so make sure you prioritise things appropriately.

If I were you, the strategy I would probably employ (because I'm hugely risk averse) is to find a job with part time WFH that has the option to lead to full time remote. Get a couple of years of experience with working from home (and at least 6 months of full time remote). Then toy with the idea of doing solo consulting (ideally fully remote). As you are learning to work remotely, go to meet ups, etc to make contacts so that you have an avenue for solo consulting. This may mean moving to a fairly large city if you don't already live in one. Try out selling yourself and seeing if you have the character to do that (because not everyone can be successful in that regard, and being solo means you don't have anyone else to lean on). And finally, don't panic. You have lots of time to sort this out. Good for you thinking about it now -- take a few years trying different things and seeing how they work out. But don't procrastinate. This is your time for exploring -- if you wait until you are 50, it gets much scarier (believe me!)

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#189
post #131

Well, Goldilocks, you’re going to have to pick which of your list you’re willing to give up to have the other. Do such jobs exist? You bet they do, I’m working a job that fits your list to the letter. I’m also making considerably less than I could. That’s fine, it was a compromise I was willing to make. But I’m not working on mobile, either. In a macro sense, though, you’re going to have to come to grips with the fac…

Embedded is definitely a place where this sort of Goldilocks environment can be found. I suspect it's because embedded -- and I mean really low-level stuff, not "We run embedded Linux!" level -- requires a lot of EE knowledge in addition to software engineering skill to do it well. That, in turn, requires test instruments and such, which lends itself to an office or at least a dedicated section of lab bench rather th…

Or maybe I've just been lucky.

Well, it’s not just you. I didn’t want to act like I know what I’m talking about, given that I’m eight months into my only “real” embedded job (I’ve previously consulted on projects, but they didn’t let me near the low-level stuff.) The only difference in our situations is that our remote solution (GoToMyPc, no VPN) sucks. :-)

Re: Ask HN: 40+ Career Advice?

#190
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because most technology managers are too disconnected from the actual work, and don't understand what their employees actually do. Obviously, there are a few examples of tech leaders that remain hands on, but it seems that when most engineers transition into leadership, after 2-3 years, they've become so disconnected from anything hands on that they are just bad. I'll give an example: a software developm…

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I think there is a second half to the problem. Half the managers are as you describer, but the other half are put in management positions on the basis of only technical ability and actually have no clue how to manage a team and in fact don't really care about doing that at all. Their passion is tech and will always be tech, but they are managing the team for status or career…

Yes, you're right, I think I described the one end of the spectrum where you have someone that chose to move into a management role because they never were that good at the hands on work, and on the other end of the spectrum, you have the brilliant genius hackers that think going into management will help them advance their career, not realizing that the skills that make them 10x engineers are not going to help them even be a 0.5x manager.
Post reply on HN