If anything this is great free advertisement for Boeing's quality.
and the quality of Air India pilots too :)
I mean... seriously how bad can you be to put so many people at risk.
Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
181–190 of 255 posts
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ugh, there have been Cessna deaths caused the same way. It's my least favorite failure mode to think about, since there's no obvious way to correct. In a Cessna, best you can do is release the yoke and tiptoe on to the rudders, but professional instructors have still died when this happens to them, since low altitude errors are often not correctable by the time you've lost too much altitude. Usually there ought to be…
In contrast, I can't say I've ever heard of seats in cars having this problem. Is it because plane seats are highly optimised for weight?
Suppose your car seat hasn’t locked. You drive, then you suddenly go up a hill, and the seat slides back. Well, fine, you hold on to the steering wheel (or not), stop, take a breath, adjust the seat, and carry on.
Suppose your plane seat hasn’t locked. You taxi around to the runway (slow and always level), then you begin the takeoff run. Already, you have some acceleration pulling back. Then you gently pull back the yoke to rotate. Now, suddenly your seat slides back. You hold onto the yoke, stall, and die. Or you let go off the yoke, and now the plane is unpiloted in the crucial take-off phase. And, note, stopping is not an option at this point.
That’s why vigorously thrashing around in your seat is part of the before-takeoff checklist (“Seat - LOCKED”).
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
What caused them to retun in half way? Report says Trichy airport informed pilot about posssible damage to plane. Pilot ignored it saying everything is green. What happened in 4hrs to divert back to Mumbai is still mystery. Will be interesting to see full report
If they went to burn the fuel, going somewhere and returning is easier than circling for 4 hours.
Easier, but more dangerous; surely not protocol.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not a pilot, and not trying to be an armchair pilot, but why would he have ascended all the way to 36000 feet? Isn't there a real risk of depressurization with hull damage?
No. If there was a leak then it wouldnt pressurize properly on the way up. If it was holding pressure, it would probably keep doing so.
To take a structurally damaged plane to altitude with that argument (if it holds pressure, it probably won’t explode) is reckless folly.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
Less stress imho. At altitude the forces on wings/structure are far less than during takeoff.
Incorrect. In level flight the wings have - by definition - 1g of upward load. Regardless of speed or altitude.
That’s what sand worm was saying - level flight puts less stress on the wings than takeoff (where you accelerate vertically, thus have more than 1g).
Still, you don’t want to take a structurally damaged plane high up.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
In contrast, I can't say I've ever heard of seats in cars having this problem. Is it because plane seats are highly optimised for weight?
My wife knows of two fatal car accidents caused by this. Don't adjust your seat whilst driving peeps, and make sure it clicked into position before you drive if you adjust it.
Mind sharing what causes the accident, does a sliding seat cause the driver to yank the steering wheel and lose control?
Also, what about adjusting the steering wheel while driving? Sounds like a similar threat.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
They had to expend the fuel as dumping is not always an option, when you have a tail strike you don't take risks at landing, consuming the fuel to reduce weight and minimize the risk of fire is a basic option.
Going to 36000 feet was taking a massive risk. I don’t think we have enough information yet to establish whether excessive weight was a factor.
On the other hand being higher buys you more time to correct for problems when they occur.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#188Question for professional pilots here: does this feel like normal behaviour for a pilot? From my limited experience of pilots, this seems entirely unlike the kind of behaviour you'd expect - they're usually conservative when it comes to safety or is that just the projected image to reassure the public?!
Unfortunately don’t have time for a long post at the moment, but as an airline pilot and instructor/check pilot, I can say that extreme incompetence exists in the airline world, especially in Africa, India, SE Asia. There could be some very good reasons that they chose to continue, and often I learn those reasons when the facts are released, discovering that a good decision was made. I’ll be following the investigati…
The accidents rates by country paints a completely different picture. [1] This wikipedia list of glaring pilot incompetence leading to fatalities doesn't seem to show any bias for specific regions. [2]
When using anecdotal data one just can't make sweeping judgements and conclusions data does not support, that takes discussion into the region of prejudice and bigotry.
This anecdotal one person usually 'an insider' finding one thing wrong or incident in some country and casually conflating it to the whole is seen too often and creates grossly inaccurate stereotypes, when the exact same issue or incident exists everywhere else.
This is not harmless and derails informed discussion. It creates prejudice and in this case stress among travelers when they travel to other countries thinking about 'training, hull loss, safety' based on uninformed discussion not supported by data on the ground. If you are going to travel in a Cessna the standards including pilot training is not comparable to jets whichever country you are in. But no stable functioning country in the world takes passenger and running jets casually as the accident and safety data shows.
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/america-russia-and-...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_error#Notable_examples
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
My, what a broad brush you have. With of course no ‘time’ to back it up with facts.
Some facts: Hull loss rates by region of operator per million departures (Jet / Turboprop) 2012-2016: [0] - 2.21 / 7.38 Africa - 1.17 / 20.59 CIS - 0.74 / 3.42 Middle East / North Africa - 0.53 / 1.55 Latin America / Caribbean - 0.48 / 1.45 Asia Pacific - 0.22 / 0.98 North America - 0.14 / 0.73 Europe - 0.00 / 8.73 North Asia India falls below Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan in air safety audit [1] >The audit — ICAO Univers…
This is highly misleading and deceptive. You are mixing up the headline and data from link 2 which is mainly focused on which government agency licenses ATCs as the reason for lower scores, to the IATA hull loss data from link 1 which does not single out any country or region for below 'minimum safety target rates'.
This is the IATA data for hull loss rates for 2017 per million departures:
Asia Pacific - 0.18
CIS - 0.92
Europe - 0.13
Latin America and the Caribbean - 0.41
Middle East and North Africa - 0.00
North America - 0.00
The second link does not mention or link to anything about hull loss, safety issues, aircraft, training but talks about lower ranking due to ATC licensing by government agencies.
Re: Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
#190I hate articles introducing three-letter-mysteries and leaving the readers in confusion. To add insult to injury, none of the comments seem to acknowledge that the topic is impentrable. What is the mysterious ILS that was hit? Even after reading the Wikipedia article, I only have a vague idea - seems to be a radar system, both on ground and in the air. Did the plane hit a radar tower?
ELI5: ILS tells the plane how high/low, left/right it is in relation to the runway when landing in foggy conditions