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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#181

Post by rootusrootus »

ciconia wrote: post #152
netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

> Switching from a 10yr old ICE hatchback to a new one can easily save you $500 pa. Going from a new "efficient" ICE to an electric will save you a fraction of that. Not true. From personal experience driving an electric costs one fifth the cost of fuel per km. That's an enormous saving.

A Prius gets around 55 mpg, which with gas at 3.25/gal and electricity at 0.11/kWh means a Chevy Bolt, for example, costs just a little over half what the electric does, per mile. The electric also has a significantly higher capital cost and depreciation rate. I wouldn't be at all surprised if over, say, five years, the Prius has a cheaper TCO.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#182

Post by xxs »

bluGill wrote: post #149
daveFNbuck wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the future that governments are trying to avoid by subsidizing electric cars and/or restricting gasoline-powered cars.

There are some disadvantages of electric cars which may or may not be solvable.

>majewsky - Charge times, charging with higher voltage decreases the battery capacity. - Some cities may require major grid upgrades, peaks consumption may rise significantly - A lot of power still comes from coal which doesn't solve much as emissions go.

Overall it all revolves, around energy density, inability to store electricity efficiently, charge times and battery degradation (lots of them are not produced in very renewable manner)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#183

Post by daveFNbuck »

bluGill wrote: post #149
daveFNbuck wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the future that governments are trying to avoid by subsidizing electric cars and/or restricting gasoline-powered cars.

There are some disadvantages of electric cars which may or may not be solvable.

Which is why governments that believe that the negative externalities of fossil fuels are worse than those disadvantages use legislation to tip the scales in the other direction.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#184

Post by bluGill »

cptaj wrote: post #132
WhompingWindows wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Say…

I absolutely agree with you about infrastructure. Its definitely coming and will cover most use cases. But I do wonder how we're gonna cover that last mile. Adding hundreds of miles of range to an ICE car is hilariously simple, just a couple of plastic containers in the trunk and you're good to go. Can't add extra batteries like that. Energy density is not a truism. Maybe portable ICE generators, sort of like hybrid…

There are power lines to most places already. The utility replaces/upgrades them on a schedule (IIRC the expected lifespan for overhead lines last for 17 years, underground for 15). Which is to say the infrastructure is mostly there, and just needs updates that would happen anyway.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#185

Post by bluGill »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but in the US farmers use a lot of power. They have welders and other such tools that can draw 50 amps or more. The motors for their drying fans are drawing 20 amps each (and several of them can run at once). Note that the above amp figures are at 240 volts just like power in Europe, not the lower 120 we use for lights and fridges.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#186

Post by Theodores »

lsiunsuex wrote: post #102
floatrock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

Sounds like when I early adopted digital photography. My friends with proper cameras told me how much there was to film grain, how they loved playing with chemicals and the rest of it. They sneered at my passion for digital photography claiming it was dull. Where are they now, on Instagram with an iPhone.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#187

Post by ptaipale »

woobar wrote: post #177
FullyFunctional wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumerism is bad for the planet, 100% true. However the "every 3 years like an average westerner" remark needs citation. In the context of the article (Denmark) it is certainly not true. Cars are so expensive (the 180% tax is absolutely real - I've paid it) that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more. In fact, the number of people with zero cars would be hard to believe if you come from California. Alas, t…

> that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more And yet the average age of the car in Denmark is 8.9 years [1]. For comparison Germany is at 9.3 year, and US is at 11.6 years [2] [1] http://www.aut.fi/en/statistics/international_statistics/ave... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261881/average-age-of-li...

The two sources is different, so it might be good to be wary about comparing them. Could be right though.

But anyway, these average ages may be due to little used old cars being taken out of registry, to avoid annual fixed taxes? This has not much impact on the average age of cars used in daily traffic.

FWIW, I'm from Finland, also with a history of high car purchase taxes, and the average in above data is almost 12 years. The oldest cars, however, have lower annual car tax (they had the highest tax at purchase time).

BTW I understand Denmark was about to lower the car purchase tax from 180 % to 100 % or so?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#188

Post by maxxxxx »

walshemj wrote: post #165
maxxxxx wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A charging station is probably cheaper than a gas station to build.

Id like to see your figures on that.

I have no numbers but it seems a charging station is simpler. No gas tank to bury, no risk of leakage, no fire hazards.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#189

Post by wanderr »

gambiting wrote: post #61
tedeh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enforcing it is going to be quite simple. The "DMV" or equivalent will have a very hard time explaining why they are still giving out license plates for new vehicles that are not electric if the ban is made law.

As I explained elsewhere - hybrids are exempt. And all current manufacturers can make all of their models into some extremely mild hybrids just to get around the ban. So expect to see a lot of models with 1bhp electric motors just to classify as hybrids coming out soon. And cars made before the ban will obviously be still allowed, so there's no issues there.

floatrock previously pointed out that your statement about hybrids being exempt does not appear to be true:

"“In just 12 years, we will prohibit the sale of new diesel and petrol cars. And in 17 years, every new car in Denmark must be an electric car or other forms of zero-emissions car,” Rasmussen said, implying that hybrids will be phased out in 2035."

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#190

Post by Dylan16807 »

Retric wrote: post #25
gambiting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the new 400e has more range. The original that came out few years ago had only 1 mile range, as mentioned in the brochure: https://www.landrover.com/Images/HYBRID_FAQ_GUIDE_Intreactiv... "How far can my Range Rover Hybrid travel using just the electric motor? When Electric Vehicle mode is activated manually using the EV button, the EV light on the instrument cluster will glow green. The Range Rover Hybrid will d…

That's actually plenty of storage to be useful to a hybrid vehicle. Remember, that battery is always charged by the engine so the trade-off of less weight also means longer range. The vast majority of the efficiency gains in city driving from a non plug in Hybrid is regenerative breaking. Sure, slowing down across a huge mountain represents a lot of energy, but making stop an go traffic vastly more efficient takes ve…

> Remember, that battery is always charged by the engine so the trade-off of less weight also means longer range.

True, but this car is already so extremely heavy that the added battery is 4-5%.

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