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Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

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Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#181

IBM is quietly brushing its Watson mess under the carpet and now they’re trying to focus on blockchain. However this is just as substanceless and full of marketing fluff as Watson was. There’s nothing being done here that couldn’t or shouldn’t just be handled with a traditional database. Having IBM “run it” also sort of defeats the whole decentralized aspect of blockchain technologies. You don’t need “blockchain” to…

Help me out here, I really don't see how a traditional database could solve the problem today.

If you have various different, independent actors that operate in a shared environment but with distinct roles, how does traditional DBs help you do anything that isn't already being done today?

For example, sharing data between those actors is still a heavy duty process. Trusting the data coming to you from other actors is still a high risk area, even if they aren't intentionally acting maliciously. Determining actors who have acted in poor faith without trusted and transparent data sources is incredibly difficult as well. How do you overcome these issues and come to the point of a centralized DB either? Who's going to own that central DB and pay for everything going into and out of it?

So in that way, I don't see your point about how a traditional or central DB could solve these issues. I agree with all your other points, and I certainly agree the buzzword charm is heavy as always with this topic, but I don't buy that part.

Happy to hear otherwise. Full transparency, to me, it does seem like DLT has an enterprise value so I'm a bit more of a homer than most.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#182
post #29
post #9

Can't one solve the problem of tracking food contamination with a simple key value store that tracks supplier id and the food batch information? Whats the advantage of using blockchain here?

It's about tracking all steps, all parts that were used, whether all companies involved in the processing chain had appropriate ISO certificates, if sourcing didn't originate from sanctioned countries or countries with bad working practices etc. in order to "select" ones that fulfill given criteria, possibly marketing them in multiple layers with certificates (this one is pure Swiss, cows were fed grass 100% from Gla…

Yes but how does a blockchain do anything that a database doesn't in this instance?

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#183

IBM is quietly brushing its Watson mess under the carpet and now they’re trying to focus on blockchain. However this is just as substanceless and full of marketing fluff as Watson was. There’s nothing being done here that couldn’t or shouldn’t just be handled with a traditional database. Having IBM “run it” also sort of defeats the whole decentralized aspect of blockchain technologies. You don’t need “blockchain” to…

Help me out here, I really don't see how a traditional database could solve the problem today. If you have various different, independent actors that operate in a shared environment but with distinct roles, how does traditional DBs help you do anything that isn't already being done today? For example, sharing data between those actors is still a heavy duty process. Trusting the data coming to you from other actors is…

> sharing data between those actors is still a heavy duty process.

Utter nonsense. Everything is HARDER TO DO when done through a blockchain.

> Trusting the data coming to you from other actors is still a high risk area

Utter nonsense. Public / private key encryption solves this in the same way a blockchain would, because a blockchain uses public / private key encryption.

> Who's going to own that central DB and pay for everything going into and out of it?

Walmart. Or IBM. It would likely cost less than $50/month of AWS resources, including backups and redundancy.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help me out here, I really don't see how a traditional database could solve the problem today. If you have various different, independent actors that operate in a shared environment but with distinct roles, how does traditional DBs help you do anything that isn't already being done today? For example, sharing data between those actors is still a heavy duty process. Trusting the data coming to you from other actors is…

> sharing data between those actors is still a heavy duty process. Utter nonsense. Everything is HARDER TO DO when done through a blockchain. > Trusting the data coming to you from other actors is still a high risk area Utter nonsense. Public / private key encryption solves this in the same way a blockchain would, because a blockchain uses public / private key encryption. > Who's going to own that central DB and pay…

> Everything is HARDER TO DO when done through a blockchain

Could you explain?

PKI is solves the issue of identity. It can't solve all the issues around accuracy, consistency, and provenance when it comes to data sharing.

Ignoring the idea that you think it's a cheap endeavor, my bigger point is that putting every single bit of the responsibility on a single entity is a tough challenge.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, a blockchain is a decentralized database which does not require the individual instances to have perfect connectivity and perfect trust all the time. I can see why that would be something worth doing in a food chain. To trace, for example, a particular load of soy beans to a customer eating a steak, there are a couple of completely autonomous companies/sole proprietors involved. From the original…

> does not require the individual instances to have perfect connectivity and perfect trust all the time. The blockchain does not solve the trust issue in this scenario. Blockchains only work there is a verify unit entirely enclosed in the system - including the origins of any "unit" on the system. * Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc - "coins" are a completely digital concept fully enclosed by the system. "coins" are generated in…

"Food - involves a physical good that cannot be verified by the "blockchain"."

If only we could hash a potato...

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#186
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? "CDC estimates that each year STEC [Shiga toxin-producing E. coli] causes 265,000 illness, 3,600 hospitalizations and 30 deaths in the United States." https://www.cdc.gov/features/ecoliinfection/index.html

Sorry, I misquoted: it's 75 million cases of food borne illness in general, and 5,000 deaths, using older statistics from smaller population sizes. Using your stats, this outbreak was responsible for 0.1% of e.coli illnesses and 1/6th the deaths. But it's also 1/300,000 of the overall food poisoning illnesses, and 0.1% of the deaths. So it hit the lettuce industry significantly harder than normal, even though the act…

Latest data is

Estimated annual number of episodes of illnesses caused by 31 pathogens transmitted commonly by food

Domestically acquired foodborne [1]

9,388,075 (6,641,440–12,745,709)

Deaths [2]

1,351 (712–2,268)

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/pdfs/scallan-estimated-i...

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/pdfs/scallan-estimated-h...

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "an item" moving through the food chain. In the EU we have a somewhat traditional system for cattle, created after the BSE crisis. Each animal has two ear tags which contain a unique ID. This ID will be carried through to the table if necessary. But it has to be "copied" along, for example when the animal is processed. The idea behind block chains in food processing is to record the transact…

That’s no better than an IBM hosted MySQL store, except harder.

With an "IBM hosted MySQL store" you would need every party to have write privileges on the database, and make realtime connections to exactly this one database instance.

This can be somewhat hidden by remote APIs, multi-datacenter protocols and the like. But probably you are quickly going to some form of custom, signed data packets with an eventually consistent system.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, a blockchain is a decentralized database which does not require the individual instances to have perfect connectivity and perfect trust all the time. I can see why that would be something worth doing in a food chain. To trace, for example, a particular load of soy beans to a customer eating a steak, there are a couple of completely autonomous companies/sole proprietors involved. From the original…

> As I understand it, a blockchain is a decentralized database which does not require the individual instances to have perfect connectivity and perfect trust all the time. Specifically, perfect trust in the log itself . Blockchain gives you a guard against someone trying to retroactively tamper with the log. It doesn't give you a whole lot of help with the points where data enters the log in the first place. e.g., th…

I believe the case of network partition only matters in case of an attack on the system, i.e. someone entering conflicting information.

That would be somewhat obvious, and you'd have to go after that actor. But as long as that doesn't happen, and even if it would happen, most transactions will actually be valid enough to trace the food chain.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does not require the individual instances to have perfect connectivity and perfect trust all the time. The blockchain does not solve the trust issue in this scenario. Blockchains only work there is a verify unit entirely enclosed in the system - including the origins of any "unit" on the system. * Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc - "coins" are a completely digital concept fully enclosed by the system. "coins" are generated in…

"Food - involves a physical good that cannot be verified by the "blockchain"." If only we could hash a potato...

....soooo....it's like Pied Piper, but for potatoes.

We call it hashed browns.

Re: Walmart Requires Lettuce, Spinach Suppliers to Join Blockchain

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it doesn't really prevent bad food entering the food supply chain; at best it just documents where it originated. So the next time someone is sicknened headlines reading "The IBM food chain (TM) failed to protect consumers" seem inevitable. Seems like a big reputational liability for marginal upside.

I don't think so. I think the actual headline (after IBM's pr machine gets involved) will be, "IBM successfully limits spinach e coli outbreak to only 56 people across seven states."

Sir I believe you may be ignoring the penchant for clickbait journalism these days. I'm not saying it's fair but it's effective.
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