Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance • Hacker News Board

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#181

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #109

ta987654321 wrote: post #19

This studio closure hits a little close to me, since I know a few former employees: - They really did not see a full studio closure coming so suddenly. Yes, they were aware that they were struggling, but the 25% staff reduction was supposed to keep the studio sustainable. - They were in the planning stages for an original IP, their new leadership realized too late that expensive IP licenses were unsustainable. - Thei…

I've been in game Dev for a while now, and your points are screaming that there's a forthcoming closure. - Cutting a quarter of staff is a Hail Mary unless it's preceded and accompanied by a core strategy pivot, generally. - Planning new and original IP is typical busy work for a studio that specializes in licensed games. Hiring is hard, expensive and slow; keeping the team busy is standard when looking for another l…

> Moving offices is a great way to save operation expenses when the lease is up, if you're desperate.

Even more cynically, planning a move helps defer costs in the existing space. Anything from new amenities to fixing broken desks can potentially be deflected with "it's not worth it right before we move".

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#182

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

bb88 wrote: post #24

ta987654321 wrote: post #19

This studio closure hits a little close to me, since I know a few former employees: - They really did not see a full studio closure coming so suddenly. Yes, they were aware that they were struggling, but the 25% staff reduction was supposed to keep the studio sustainable. - They were in the planning stages for an original IP, their new leadership realized too late that expensive IP licenses were unsustainable. - Thei…

> They really did not see a full studio closure coming so suddenly. Yes, they were aware that they were struggling, but the 25% staff reduction was supposed to keep the studio sustainable. Yeah, so this is just pure mismanagement. Either they couldn't do math, or they signed an agreement that required some sort of hidden balloon payment, or they couldn't reign in their costs when managers were allowed to buy things u…

> they couldn't do math

Generously, bulk firings like that can be an attempt to add runway, or compensate (painfully) for over-expansion. Telltale management may have been hoping for a few more high-profile releases that would keep them solvent, and cut staff devoted to riskier or lower-margin work in hopes of surviving until those profits hit. When the numbers came in lower than hoped, there was nothing left in the hopper and no more point in delaying the collapse.

Of course, everything in Telltale's story screams mismanagement, and the overexpansion was pretty clearly an issue in the first place. A studio producing largely one-trick games around expensive branded properties can't spin up new projects freely for new staff, and even if they do they were competing with their own games to the point of market saturation.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#183

Post by fliesblackflags » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

I feel bad for the employees. Getting laid off sucks, I hope they all have better jobs soon.

In terms of TTG as a company, they got what they asked for. It's too bad it didn't happen before they hired their first non founders.

I'd been watching TTG since before they had a name. The rumors were that the devs from the cancelled Sam & Max game left Lucas to make a Sam & Max game. This was second only to Star Wars for me at the time.

I bought it as soon as a physical copy came out. (I don't remember if episodes came on disc or if I had to wait for the season). TTG had built DRM into the game that prevented you from using it in a virtual machine. TTG's website had made it sound like the DRM wouldn't prevent anyone with a physical copy from playing.

I contacted TTG. Their rep seemed to be reading of some BS script. He was condescending. He treated me like I didn't know what I was talking about for not wanting to use wine or dual boot. I returned the game to the store* and acquired a copy that had been patched to repair the DRM. After that, if TTG came up in a conversation I made sure to give the person a heads up that they'd just need to pirate it anyway.

* This was a small store, their policy defined games rendered unplayable by DRM as defective. This policy caused them to not carry future TTG games.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#184

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #44

People are blaming mismanagement, bad licensing terms etc., and while that all may be true, it is also worth noting that Telltale has not released anything really worth playing since The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us. No studio will survive after releasing ~12 bad to average games in a row over 4 years.

> No studio will survive after releasing ~12 bad to average games in a row over 4 years.

And Telltale was vastly more at risk than most studios because of their episodic games. They basically sold each game with a funnel, and one bad episode jeopardized sales for everything after it.

If some studio like Supergiant (or perhaps some more-prolific equivalent) released four years of bad-to-average games, I would still keep an eye on their output in hopes that any one new release might be great. But Telltale was putting out all of these big-license games and had everything past Episode 1 stymied by past weakness like a TV show with a bad opener. It was an almost uniquely vulnerable situation for a studio.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#185

Post by analog31 » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #171

otoburb wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This can lead to weirdly misaligned incentives, like C-level executives on a failing company trying to get fired because their severance package will leave them better off than staying with the sinking ship. If anybody is fired in the U.S. they are almost always never entitled to severance. Severance is primarily available for employees who have been laid off. Such companies would love to fire executives in the tr…

A contract can say whatever it says. If it says that in event of your being asked to leave the company that you get 6 months salary, then you get 6 months salary upon being asked to leave. Regardless of why you're asked to leave the company. This kind of contract term is not given rank and file employees. But I personally know executives who have been fired and kept a salary because it was in their contract, includin…

There can be a lot of confusion about what "fired" means. Most US states have "employment at will," meaning that there is no implied contract, and an employee can be terminated without giving a cause. Yet in the common parlance, "fired" means "terminated with cause." If an employee has been terminated with cause, they know it.

Also, companies avoid the term "layoff" because it could imply that an employee is entitled to be re-hired if business conditions improve. This can be the case in union shops. The term I've heard for a permanent termination without cause is "reduction of force."

Companies have to be careful about using "with cause" because they can get sued over it unless they absolutely have all of their ducks in a row. They will often pay the severance rather than expose themselves to a lawsuit and discovery process. They may also wait until there's a downturn, and get rid of the low performers all at once.

Of course like you say, if there's a contract, it can say anything.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#186

Post by philipov » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

caro_douglos wrote: post #106

Aeolun wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where you work, but I can count on one finger the places where I actually knew the companies financial situation. You can try to guess based on sales and nr of employees, but it’s hardly an exact science.

If you're not a founder or investor it's not worth worrying about since there's little you can legally do to remedy/fix the situation...the question is at what point as an employee do you become complacent enough to see a lot of strange behavior and decide not to leave. IMO we give a lot of credit to these large companies and trust them to do right by us when they fire us/lay us off/we leave. I feel bad for all the p…

> If you're not a founder or investor it's not worth worrying about since .... at what point as an employee do you become complacent enough ...

You are quick to blame the victims for being complacent, and at the same time you don't realize how important it is to know your company's financials when making employment decisions. Just because you can think of some strawman to burn, don't assume you're so much cleverer than everyone else.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#187

Post by WorldMaker » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #122

kevinh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TTG shtick was essentially “emotional abuse simulators” all their games had one trick get you attached to characters and see them die with very little actual player control over it. Some of their games were like this, but others were not. The Tales from the Borderlands series and Guardians of the Galaxy series were primarily vehicles for comedy, and did not rely on the trope you're mentioning.

Their early work... Strongbad Episodes, and the Sam and Max series, were really quite amazing. TTG's later franchises never really interested me; I had assumed the games were just as good. To hear that their later franchises resorted to these kinds of tactics makes me sad :(

For the most part the franchises you expect to do these emotional harrowing stuff were the ones that did: The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones.

For the most part the games are "nearly as good". TTG burnt through a lot of great writers and craftsmen, and never quite replaced the folks that made the early work particularly great. They wanted to be a television studio, and a certain churn like that was inevitable, regardless of all the other mismanagement problems they had.

Batman was more about presenting the different "faces" of Batman and letting the player decide which fit best their playstyle/interest. The consequences of "is Batman the mask or is Bruce Wayne?" and "does Batman care about Bruce Wayne's friends/feelings?" There are some emotional highs, but nothing quite as "abusive" as The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones at their worst.

Minecraft Story Mode was their next most profitable after The Walking Dead, and just a silly joy/blast. Somewhat to par with Strongbad/Sam & Max. Recommended, even if you aren't a big Minecraft fan.

The Fables game (The Wolf Among Us) was a strong detective novel with fantasy elements. Playing to early work strengths when TTG was funding Sam & Max / Strongbad with CSI games.

Tales from the Borderlands was the closest to a Sam & Max in terms of humor of recent output. I burnt out on the grind of the Borderlands FPS games, but enjoyed a lot of the humor to them, and TTG knocked out of the some of what was missing in the storylines of the FPS games, and very much brought the humor. Even if the FPS games don't interest you, Tales from the Borderlands may be worth playing just because they are funny/charming/weird.

I haven't gotten very far in Guardians of the Galaxy, so I'm not sure how it stacks up.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#188

Post by WorldMaker » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #55

WillPostForFood wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their games steeply declined in sales after the first Walking Dead. From selling many millions to the last few selling only a few hundred thousand in spite of high profile licenses like Batman.

I’m not surprised TWD was fairly innovative for its time and also came close to the peak popularity of the series it was also likely the cheapest license they could get since IIRC they licensed the comic not the series from AMC. Game of Thrones and the marvel and DC licensed games couldn’t have been cheap to license and they “upped” their game with getting bigger and bigger voice actors and for GoT they licensed the…

> Also as their biggest games weren’t something you would let children play

Minecraft Story Mode was presumably their next best selling after The Walking Dead of recent output, presumably because it could appeal to a broader and younger audience.

Though that still isn't saying much looking at the Steam chart presented in the post. Though Minecraft Story Mode sales is also presumably under-reported in Steam numbers as you would expect more console owners among families with kids than PC players.

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#189

Post by dleslie » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #181

dleslie wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in game Dev for a while now, and your points are screaming that there's a forthcoming closure. - Cutting a quarter of staff is a Hail Mary unless it's preceded and accompanied by a core strategy pivot, generally. - Planning new and original IP is typical busy work for a studio that specializes in licensed games. Hiring is hard, expensive and slow; keeping the team busy is standard when looking for another l…

> Moving offices is a great way to save operation expenses when the lease is up, if you're desperate. Even more cynically, planning a move helps defer costs in the existing space. Anything from new amenities to fixing broken desks can potentially be deflected with "it's not worth it right before we move".

No reason not to defer to cynicism when working in gaming. ;)

Re: Telltale Employees Left Stunned by Company Closure, No Severance

#190

Post by jarsin » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

ww520 wrote: post #78

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) in my career that the first company I work for was acquired and a massive company wide layoff followed, which woke me up from the Koolaid on dedicating my life to the companies I work for, and I would never let any company determine my fate.

Yup I actually only prefer to work with people that have been laid off before. People that have never been laid off are more likely to be the "Look boss I worked till 3am to finish your stupid project" types.

Can't stand working with "do anything for the company" types. They are naive.