Man jailed over computer password refusal • Hacker News Board

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#181

Post by SeanLuke » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 3:52 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #29

ck2 wrote: post #17

In the USA can you be compelled to testify against yourself by being coerced into giving a password to law enforcement? Has this been tested yet, out of curiosity? I remember reading they can deny you entry/exit to the USA if customs can't read your laptop but never heard anything like local/FBI. If not, I hope it doesn't go before this particular supreme court.

They can slap an "obstruction of justice" charge on. Or charge you with "contempt of court" and just jail you based on that. In broader terms yes the system has a way to inflict random punishment on you for disobidience. In other countries they will just start breaking your fingers, your loved ones fingers, and so on. So the password problem is solved a lot "easier" then.

> They can slap an "obstruction of justice" charge on.

Obstruction of justice can only be committed by officers of the court or elected officials.

> Or charge you with "contempt of court" and just jail you based on that.

This seems very unlikely given the (1) the 5th amendment and (2) only judges can issue contempt of court citations.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#182

Post by pyre » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 3:54 AM UTC

thedjpetersen wrote: post #63

If they are unable to crack the pass code, does he go free on lack of evidence?

I imagine so seeing as they gave him a finite sentence. Presumably he'll never get his equipment back though.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#183

Post by maxawaytoolong » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 3:54 AM UTC

gloob wrote: post #111

ciupicri wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... it's the same password/encrypted data here.

Disclaimer: IANAL. Disclaimer: IANAA (I Am Not An American) Assaulting the same person twice would still be two different assaults. Stealing a truck, getting caught and punished, and stealing the same truck again would, to my understanding, not be risk-free, legally speaking. I suspect the same would probably apply here, though given how unintuitive the law is, especially in this area, I may well be dead wrong. Edit:…

That is not how it works...

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#184

Post by pyre » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 3:56 AM UTC

pilom wrote: post #33

moxiemk1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought remembered a court precedent in the US that ruled being compelled to divulge encryption keys was equivalent to being compelled to hand over keys to locked places (like a safe), which is historically required. That said, I can't find such an article, so hopefully I'm making it up and we are indeed safe in our minds.

No legally in the US you are not required to give the keys to the safe, but they can drop your sentence significantly for working with the investigators. For a safe, if you don't give them the key, the get a grinder and hack saw, for an encrypted hard drive in the US they give it to the NSA (though 50 chars would be tough for even them i'd expect).

The NSA doesn't want anyone to know what their capabilities are, but I remember a case where they gave it to a university which threw a cluster at it...

edit: 'they' being 'the authorities', not the NSA.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#185

Post by elai » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 3:57 AM UTC

bshep wrote: post #153

omh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the law is worded so that it's an offence to have encrypted files and not be able to decrypt them. Whether it's deliberate or just forgotten isn't relevant (though I'd hope it would make a difference in sentencing).

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if someone e-mailed you something with a title of 'Here are the files you requested about [illegal stuff]' and include an attachment with encrypted contents. Then say I notify the cops about your 'illegal' activities.

They try to find his co-conspirator.

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#186

Post by elai » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 4:07 AM UTC

jason_slack wrote: post #16

Can anyone explain how TrueCrypt works for OS X? Could I have my entire home directory on the hidden partition? What about their hidden operating system feature? So I can have my normal OS as the decoy OS and then have a hidden Linux OS (as example) that I use for sys adm type stuff and boot to it when I need to? Can VMWare or Parallels see this partition and create a VM based on it?

Truecrypt doesn't work, but you have the FileVault feature built into OSX and PGP whole disk encryption:

http://paulstamatiou.com/review-pgp-whole-disk-encryption-fo...

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#187

Post by fbcocq » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 4:23 AM UTC

_cbsz wrote: post #109

fbcocq wrote: post #21

I've been resetting people's 8 character passwords lost due to Post-Vacation-Insomnia for ages, I'd really like to see them expect me to remember a 50 character password under stress conditions.

Did you mean: Post-Vacation-Amnesia?

Yes

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#188

Post by corysama » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 4:41 AM UTC

SageRaven wrote: post #103

boredguy8 wrote: post #42

Encryption and password privacy is an entirely unsettled area of US law. The courts can probably compel you to enter your password (to decrypt a drive, or what have you), while you can maintain that the content of your password can be protected under the 5th. So, for instance, say you had encrypted files of plans to build a bomb and detailed schematics of the White House. The judge can order you to decrypt the files…

For those seriously interested in this area of law, I highly recommend http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com , as it's a really good source of info on the topic . Susan Brenner is a law prof, and her analysis of current cases is a constant treasure trove of interesting nuggets of insight into the law as it pertains to computers, electronic devices, and digital media. It's broken down enough for the layman to grasp, yet heav…

Thank you.

Apparently, this situation is not yet resolved, but is currently being tested.

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2009/03/5th-amendment-bummer....

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2010/04/passwords-and-5th-ame...

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#189

Post by corysama » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 4:45 AM UTC

mmaro wrote: post #117

corysama wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, not. This guy accidentally tested it the hard way: http://www.reddit.com/comments/afib1/truecrypt_and_the_fifth...

This entire story smells fake. If TrueCrypt just saved your life, would you really go tell reddit? The dialogue feels constructed; there's no insight about the experience. It's more likely that it's a fabrication by a district attorney, to be cited in the future (just as you have here). Edit: further evidence for this being a fake: * This supposedly happened in Februrary 2004, back when TrueCrypt was version 1.0a and…

You may be right. There's a good chance that the AMA is fake.

Meanwhile, here's a much more reputable source (pointed out elsewhere in these comments) that indicates that this issue is not yet resolved and is currently being tested.

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2009/03/5th-amendment-bummer....

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2010/04/passwords-and-5th-ame...

Re: Man jailed over computer password refusal

#190

Post by rdtsc » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 4:55 AM UTC

SeanLuke wrote: post #181

rdtsc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can slap an "obstruction of justice" charge on. Or charge you with "contempt of court" and just jail you based on that. In broader terms yes the system has a way to inflict random punishment on you for disobidience. In other countries they will just start breaking your fingers, your loved ones fingers, and so on. So the password problem is solved a lot "easier" then.

> They can slap an "obstruction of justice" charge on. Obstruction of justice can only be committed by officers of the court or elected officials. > Or charge you with "contempt of court" and just jail you based on that. This seems very unlikely given the (1) the 5th amendment and (2) only judges can issue contempt of court citations.

> Obstruction of justice can only be committed by officers of the court or elected officials.

Not true. The same legal term seems to be overloaded and used by state laws. For example from the Commonwealth of Virginia Laws (http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-460.HTM):

> § 18.2-460. Obstructing justice; penalty.

A. If any person without just cause knowingly obstructs a judge, magistrate, justice, juror, attorney for the Commonwealth, witness, any law-enforcement officer, or animal control officer employed pursuant to § 3.2-6555 in the performance of his duties as such or fails or refuses without just cause to cease such obstruction when requested to do so by such judge, magistrate, justice, juror, attorney for the Commonwealth, witness, law-enforcement officer, or animal control officer employed pursuant to § 3.2-6555, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

Notice it says "any person" not just elected official.

> This seems very unlikely given the (1) the 5th amendment and (2) only judges can issue contempt of court citations.

Actually it is very likely because of (2).