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Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

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Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#181

Post by [deleted] »

1996 wrote: post #145
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure") So you're never, ever gonna work with venture capitalists?

Being in crypto, fortunately I won't have to. One of the few benefits of ICO: you can now raise money without having to bother with VCs. That's a nice evolution.

[deleted]

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#182

Post by Retra »

anothergoogler wrote: post #106
rsinmtl wrote: post #100

The main subject in this story was pursuing a PhD in "Women's Studies". Not to disparage that field of study, but it's quite obvious that it is a pretty useless degree that limits you to a career as a Women's Studies professor. I don't think this is a good illustration of people who leave PhD programs

I feel like your comment leads to every debate about the practical value of a liberal arts degrees, ever. Either that or you're specifically devaluing Women's Studies. That makes no sense, given the push for gender diversity in the business world (and in general).

The business world isn't really hiring Women's Studies majors, regardless of the impact they've had on the industry.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#183

Post by throwawayjava »

awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

I have experience with both mathematics and CS departments, and I have exactly the opposite opinion. I think the Old School Mathematics model is absolute garbage and often explicitly and intentionally exploitative.

1. It's not like those math Ph.D.s are sitting around reading textbooks with their advisors.

They are TA'ing service courses. A lot of TA'ing. In addition to TA'ing, they are prepping for a high-stakes exam.

The exam will wash out the 50-70% of people who are needed as temp TA labor but whom the department has no intention of advising through to a Ph.D.

After 2 or 3 years, you pass the exam. Yay! But wait. Reading textbooks with your advisor? No! you need to take a whole slew of courses. Why? Because course enrollment == money and easy/interesting teaching assignments. And good luck getting tons of research done in-between your TA'ing and courses...

Now you're done with courses! Yay! After TA duties, you can spend 100% of your time on research (aka 50% of a 40 hour work week aka 80% of a grad student work week). Except you only have 2 years left :-(

So now it's on to 1-3 postdocs so that you can start doing, after 5 years, what that CS phd student was doing when they "hit the ground running": build a research agenda that resonates with a large enough set of researchers that it translates into a research job.

--

Also, the "one singular result" style of research is unique not just to mathematics, but to a particular subset of mathematics. It's just not a good fit for most research problems, even in Mathematics. I've seen tons of well-composed dissertations focused on a singular, pointless problem.

The hodgepodge dissertations don't have a "beautiful singular result" feel, but almost invariably contribute at least one piece of useful, new knowledge.

Finally, worth noting that the best and brightest don't leave research; they might leave academia, but typically not research.

TL;DR: If you can find an advisor who isn't a slave driver (the majority of them at good places), the CS model is 1000% better than the Math model. You might be hired as a researcher for someone else's research agenda, but at least you don't spend the first 1/3rd of the phd as temp teaching labor stressing over high-stakes exams.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#184

Post by majos »

gowld wrote: post #105
chriskanan wrote: post #74

A PhD is a degree in conducting research. Get one if you want a career in research. If you don't like research, don't do a PhD. Any decent program pays students about a $1.5-3K monthly stipend. Don't have being a professor as the only acceptable end-goal. There are lots of careers that benefit from or require a PhD besides being a professor. People with STEM PhDs are found in great concentration in R&D settings. For…

I thought the entire appeal of a "liberal arts" college was that the college focuses on quality teaching instead of research. Why on earth would they demand their profressors have PhDs?

If a student wants to get a taste of research, then they will probably need a research mentor with a PhD. Failing that, somebody who has published a few good papers -- but such people usually have PhDs! So it's not unreasonable to have PhDs around for student enrichment, even if having a PhD does little to make you better at teaching undergrad material.

The actual administrative reasoning here is probably a combination of the above and "you just can't be an academic without a PhD!".

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#185

Post by noodlenotes »

gervase wrote: post #163
awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

> But also because it makes the PhD not much different than working in industry. I believe this is viewed as a feature, and not a bug. For the most part, academia serves as one of the few reliable ways to emigrate to the U.S., and exploits that fact to generate a large pool of inexpensive labor. In exchange, these students are rewarded with a US visa and a comparatively well-paying job. Neither party expects these gr…

I've observed this myself and it's creating a weird dynamic in data science. More often, companies are requiring PhDs for their entry level data science positions. (Because there's a surplus of people who want to enter the field and it's difficult to tell who will ultimately be successful. Possessing a PhD is a good predictor of success.)

But there are very few American-born students going on to get PhDs who are interested in industry because, well, why would they waste another 5 years in school when they can get software engineering jobs with only a BS or MS? According to this study [1], 38% of all data scientists are non-US citizens and nearly half of early-career data scientist are non-US citizens. It's weird that we're pushing US citizens out of data science.

[1] http://burtchworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Burtch-Wor...

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#186

Post by wott »

ethelward wrote: post #43
navidfarhadi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You live off a meager stipend for about a decade Keep in mind that this is not necessarily true for schools in countries outside of the US. At my school, KTH Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, as a PhD student you are considered an employee of the school and you are paid a living wage with full benefits. The current salary starts at 28600 SEK/month and can reach up to 33500 SEK/month [1] which is definitel…

> but I am not sure about other schools in Europe. For France and Germany, stipend/wages range roughly from 1200€ to 1800€/mont, so a bit over minimal wage, and definitely under what you could do in the private sector.

True and wrong at the same time for France. In STEM, that's true. But in humanities, one third of PhD student do not get any stipend.

Also, that's not so much under what you would do in the private sector. In 'industry', you don't so often start over 1800€/month with a master, even less so in humanities. I mean, it is not rare to start with more, but something like half of people will get less, and the other half won't get much more.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#187

Post by NotPhysicsPhd »

mcv wrote: post #180
NotPhysicsPhd wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not familiar with the situation in in other countries, but here there aren't many job opportunities for recent engineering/science graduates other than IT consultant. I've met people that took a PhD positions just because it was decent pay and less hours when compared with most junior and mid-level consultant jobs available. In terms of adding value, I guess it depends on both the field and what your objectives…

Really? My impression is that there's a permanent shortage of good programmers. Although my impression is that a big part of the reason is that Dutch companies are unwilling to raise the wages of programmers; that way they create their own shortage, of course.

But there is a shortage of good programmers. By engineering/scientists in my previous comment, I meant every kind of engineer and scientist.

From my experience, IT companies only differentiate CS, electric engineers and computer engineers for entry/junior level it jobs from the rest of the engineering and scientist. Biochemists, civil engineers, physicists, chemical engineers, industrial engineers, etc. Are all the same for the HR and assume you have 0 coding skills.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#188

Post by drharby »

Fomite wrote: post #144
throwawaymath wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

I'm at an American university, and while technically this is true, an advisor going to the committee and saying "I want this person and I have the grant funding to support them" is profoundly influential, to the point that I would be shocked if the committee said no.

This terribly punishes military servicemen who wish to return to normal life and attempt a phd

Note:just making an observation

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#189

Post by Fomite »

csa wrote: post #172
Fomite wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Specifically, I tell them that it is best if they know before they even apply who they want to work with and in what capacity." I append this with the advice that one should never go to a place where their prospective advisor is the only person they can imagine working with. Primarily because: "Know the pluses and minuses of their advisor. The best grad students I have seen have read at least some of the research of…

> My PhD department worked on the "No specific advisor when admitted, lots of coursework" model, and characterizing it as having a "very weak research program" would make you look like an idiot. My comment was a reply to throwawaymath’s comment that US programs usually don’t allow professor admits and don’t have a research focus. If you went to a good school (as you seem to claim), I am willing to bet that one or mor…

"If you went to a good school (as you seem to claim), I am willing to bet that one or more admits were advocated for by a professor and (most likely) ended up as that professor’s advisee. You may not have been told about this, but I bet it happens. As I said elsewhere, strong doctoral students (relatively speaking) are extremely hard to find, and most good professors won’t leave a good fit to chance. Maybe your field is different, but I somehow doubt it."

The program doesn't do direct admit like that - I know because I asked. Faculty can advocate, and everyone was matched with an advisor, but for the most part first year funding was not under someone's direct RA line, and a slim majority of students ended up switching advisors (myself included).

Ironically, one of the professors who did recruit the strong doctoral students did so in a way that was a very useful cautionary tale for my own recruiting - namely that it's very hard to actually determine that from an application.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#190

Post by axiom92 »

amyjess wrote: post #65
geebee wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that "Graduate School in the Humanities - Just Don't Go" is a gem of an essay, because it does a good job explaining why students still enter these programs when the data screams out that they shouldn't. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the/448... One thing that is often overlooked is that the US does have a very restrictive immigration system for people who don't have relatives here and c…

> In this case, getting advanced STEM degrees provides a path towards residency, work rights, and perhaps eventually a green card or citizenship. At my very first job, nearly all of my coworkers were Indian. As I met more people at work and started adding them on LinkedIn, I noticed one thing in common with all their LinkedIn profiles: they all got their bachelor's in India and their master's in the US. One day, I wa…

It's also fucked up because a vast majority of the people who come via this route are rich kids with parents ready to back them up with cash if shit hits the fan. Lower middle class/lower class students usually don't even dream about taking a 4 million rupee loan, because they realize how fucked they would be if something goes wrong. No wonder what this kind of a sampling bias will do to the average quality of people coming in. It used to be different when a vast majority of students used to come on scholarships, but there are plenty of colleges now who run the MS program like a cash cow.
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