Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#181

Post by jhayward » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 2:51 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #108

bilbo0s wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like heat mapping a visual UI, there are a lot of people out there recording audio. However, I think that I disagree with you on whether or not sharing the data is important. If you are heat mapping me, like facebook and probably everyone else from Microsoft to CNN and FoxNews does, or you are recording me like everyone from Facebook to Samsung does, I'm sorry, I've got a problem with it. I don't care if you don't sh…

The difference is how the data is used and the whether it's associated with an individual's permanent personal data. If it's only gathered anonymously and used for internal UI improvement, that isn't objectionable. At the other extreme, association with a real-world individual enables many uses that are potentially harmful, such as unmasking those who legitimately prefer to be anonymous. Edit: I wanted to add that I…

There is no such thing as anonymous data. The belief that something is anonymous is simply an aspect of statistical ignorance or naiveté.

And, since we can't know in advance all the ways data can be combined, recombined, projected, and analyzed there is no such thing as informed consent to use said data unless specifically restricted to a single analysis using only given data.

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#182

Post by gnulinux » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 3:09 AM UTC

dirkgently wrote: post #122

TekMol wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How difficult would it be for a bot to simulate a human's mouse movements? Very very hard. Because the bot author does not have the giant database that FB has to analyze how humans move the mouse around. Also the bot author does not know which aspects FB looks at to determine if it's a human. And even if the bot author had all that information, it would still be super hard to write an AI that accomplishes a given tas…

> Very very hard. Because the bot author does not have the giant database that FB has You don't need to learn from all humans. You need to learn from very few (or just even one). Not all problems are machine learning problem.

Not only that, this can be made a machine learning problem if needed. I'm a human, so if I train my computer to act like my mouse movement, it's sufficient to fool facebook. Well, now I realize that this is not as easy as it sounds since as other pointed out we don't know how fine grained Facebook's data is and what they're paying attention to. I'm just saying that theoretically I should be able to train my agent to act just like me.

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#183

Post by gnulinux » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 3:13 AM UTC

sctb wrote: post #161

benevol wrote: post #61

Lol @ the Facebook army astro-turfing the comment section. "But it's not nefarious..." "But everybody else is doing it too..." "It's not for surveillance, profiling and shadow profiling, pinky promise, trust us..."

> Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'm sorry to say this but as a part of the community maybe I should state my opinion. I don't really agree with this policy strictly. If there is some shillage in the comment section, it's perfectly fine to email admins, but I think it's also beneficial for the community bring it up. I personally find it hard to realize legitimate shillage sometimes, and appreciate it when my friends bring it up. I don't know why admins should access more information about what we see than we do.

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#184

Post by AngryData » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 7:06 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #85

code_duck wrote: post #59

I have always assumed that Facebook uses heat maps to track what is under your pointer. Doesn't every serious site do that to gauge user behavior, interest and interface utilization? I guess the difference is FB is putting it in an available data set along with everything else about consumers' individual lives. More interesting is "a patent held by the company states that the Facebook app uses voice recognition algor…

Like heat mapping a visual UI, there are a lot of people out there recording audio. However, I think that I disagree with you on whether or not sharing the data is important. If you are heat mapping me, like facebook and probably everyone else from Microsoft to CNN and FoxNews does, or you are recording me like everyone from Facebook to Samsung does, I'm sorry, I've got a problem with it. I don't care if you don't sh…

I agree with all of that. Personally I don't even use a smart phone because of the lack of controls over knowing what or who is tracking whatever crazy shit. I either carry a laptop or a netbook when I go places, which isn't perfect still, but with proper precautions is fairly secure.

I don't do anything im worried about people finding out, but that doesn't mean I want to let them listen in either. Maybe if someone was upfront about it from the beginning or showed us what they were truly doing, but seeing how shady it all seems to be makes me assume they are doing shady shit with it.

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#185

Post by bzbarsky » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 8:10 AM UTC

croon wrote: post #155

bzbarsky wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? In Firefox you can grant the permissions once (for the current page only) or grant them forever, your choice. If your browser doesn't offer that choice, that's a problem with your browser. [Disclaimer: I work on Firefox.]

You are assuming the facebook.com page. He was talking about one of their apps.

That's fair, now that I reread his comment, but he was responding to a comment that was talking about browsers, not apps...

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#186

Post by gvurrdon » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #170

gvurrdon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what model of television that was? Might be worth getting one myself.

43x800d You need to be careful though because the microphone is in the remote control instead. So buy the remote control WITHOUT voice control, get rid of the remote that comes with the TV, and you're good. There will be no mic's in your tv setup. (This will cost you a bit extra. About 20 or 30 bucks for a generic one.) A second problem is that it is a smart tv, so you have to make sure to NOT connect it to the inter…

Thanks. I'm in similar circumstances to jake_the_third and have been wondering for some time about how to find a decent television that's not full of this.

Indeed, I would never buy a Samsung smart TV (or phone).

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#187

Post by code_duck » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

jhayward wrote: post #181

code_duck wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is how the data is used and the whether it's associated with an individual's permanent personal data. If it's only gathered anonymously and used for internal UI improvement, that isn't objectionable. At the other extreme, association with a real-world individual enables many uses that are potentially harmful, such as unmasking those who legitimately prefer to be anonymous. Edit: I wanted to add that I…

There is no such thing as anonymous data. The belief that something is anonymous is simply an aspect of statistical ignorance or naiveté. And, since we can't know in advance all the ways data can be combined, recombined, projected, and analyzed there is no such thing as informed consent to use said data unless specifically restricted to a single analysis using only given data.

I realize this, but I can picture a bare minimum store of heatmap generated data that would be extremely difficult to use for anything other than knowing what people on the website clicked on. Indeed, the more info collected, the more likely someone can combine it with other data to make broader conclusions.

Such as, any time you store a precise time in connection with user actions that has privacy implications. I picture simply not recording the time or exact URL. If the system is designed without any sort of privacy in mind, and just records whatever data is convenient and too much, that's easier to abuse than one that intentionally records a minimum with privacy in mind. I agree it's amazing the way all of this can be subverted, and yes, I realize that HN is stocked with data scientists who are more knowledgeable about this than I am.

Re: Facebook confirms that it tracks mouse movements

#188

Post by cristiantyping » Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

err4nt wrote: post #163

Does Facebook just grab everything they can? Does anybody know if they grab your device's battery status, or gyroscopic data about how you are tilting/holding your device?

it's stated right in this article that Facebook "also admitted that it collects information about operating systems, hardware, software versions, battery levels, signal strength, available storage space, Bluetooth signals, file names and types, device Ids, browser and browser plugins" ;