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Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

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Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#181
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most people are somewhere in between. What's your point?

My point is that it's not at all easy to determine who's 'good' and who's 'bad'. In fact I think those are extremely simplistic labels to tag people with, expecially when discussing what could amount to summary execution. Is an enemy combatant with a weapon a bad guy? How about an unarmed enemy combatant? How about an enemy combatant with just a knife, or a rudimentary club? How about an armed civilian who might be a…

I'm still not sure what your point is. Are you saying that people in US government/military/etc who decide who to kill make bad decisions? If so, give some examples, and suggest how we can improve the situation.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#183
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, as long as I'm thinking good thoughts, when I'm doing something evil, I am not evil?

Your thoughts don't matter, your intent does. The whole "The Military is like so evil maaaaan" shit is so 1969, grow up.

There's a long list of atrocities in human history that have been committed with the best - or at least, good, or at worst, neutral intentions.

Perhaps we should judge organizations based on what they actually do, as opposed to what they intend to do, or what they tell themselves they intend to do.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is fictional, and was made as a warning about where current tech could take us. I have no doubt that generals who have seen it are quite upset that they can't have it yet.

I realize that, I just wanted to drive the traffic to the original source rather than to some weirdo who uploaded a copy.

Thanks. I thought I had found the original upload after sifting through a lot of copies on youtube. Wish youtube was a little proactive with detecting dupes, rather than reactive. Or at least some sort of an automatic note/link to original even if it is a legal derivative.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#185
post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

I'm not surprised. After finishing my degree, I went to optimize a couple of production lines. I didn't get much detail and thought it was for plastic/glass bottles (filling liquids and moving them around - many tiny grabbers, simple movement, not that wide tracks). After about 2 months of work, and after the production line got parallelized and speed drastically increased I went to see it work. What I saw shocked me…

> Since then, I'm not surprised, given what horrors we do to living animals, that we are ready to do them to each other.

I sometimes think this is why we don’t see any intelligent civilizations out there. Intelligence gives rise to deceitfulness and eventually, one selfish actor can bring down an entire civilization intentionally or unintentionally since the weapons get so powerful.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#186
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would those angry Googlers be against surgically killing Osama? Probably. I can't find the quote, but I was reading something about the troubles with the IRA, and the response, that really stuck with me. The author said something like, "When you use lethal force against terrorists it lets them feel that it's fair to use it against you." We won't defeat violence by violence. I think we need to challenge ourselves to…

We won't defeat violence by violence. I can think of a few examples that prove that statement false. WW2?

Reminds me of the great battle at Kurukshetra. Arjuna fought because he was a warrior, he won because he chose God.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#187
post #2

Kudos to those who is ready to stand for their principles. If you are at G and thinking whether you should resign or not, remembers this - the market for AI talent is super hot. You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward

Corollary: plenty of skilled engineers with fewer moralistic constraints will jump at the chance to do interesting work for high pay. For a company as large and wealthy as Google, they can continue to raise offer salaries until they are adequately staffed. There is a school of thought that recommends “moral” people doing “immoral” work because if those people left then other “immoral” people will take those jobs and…

And you know, instead of falsely claiming that everybody has a price -- just name your own price, instead of projecting your own corruption onto everybody else.

> These men were able to give the counsel they gave because they were operating at an enormous psychological distance from the people who would be maimed and killed by the weapons systems that would result from the ideas they communicated to their sponsors. The lesson, therefore, is that the scientist and technologist must, by acts of will and of the imagination, actively strive to reduce such psychological distances, to counter the forces that tend to remove him from the consequences of his actions. He must -- it is as simple as this -- think of what he is actually doing. He must learn to listen to his own inner voice. He must learn to say "No!"

> Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. I recently heard an officer of a great university publicly defend an important policy decision he had made, one that many of the university's students and faculty opposed on moral grounds, with the words: "We could have taken a moral stand, but what good would that have done?" But the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. The victory of instrumental reason in our time has brought about the virtual disappearance of this insight and thus perforce the delegitimation of the very idea of nobility.

-- "Computer Power and Human Reason: From Judgment To Calculation" (1976)

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#188
post #29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If project maven worked as planned, wouldn't the USG kill fewer people?

Ironically, no. Drones enabled the US to kill 4,000 people in Pakistan--people who arguably would not have been killed without that tech.

Are seat belts and airbags and other safety measures worth developing, when 30,000 people die per year from cars?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#189
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one determine who's a good guy and who's a bad guy? I would have thought most people are somewhere in between.

So far, the people they kill are very much in line with my definition of "bad guys" (e.g. bin Laden).

Are you paying attention to how many "good guys" are being killed by 'your side' daily? Because thats more important than your other stat.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#190
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it's not at all easy to determine who's 'good' and who's 'bad'. In fact I think those are extremely simplistic labels to tag people with, expecially when discussing what could amount to summary execution. Is an enemy combatant with a weapon a bad guy? How about an unarmed enemy combatant? How about an enemy combatant with just a knife, or a rudimentary club? How about an armed civilian who might be a…

I'm still not sure what your point is. Are you saying that people in US government/military/etc who decide who to kill make bad decisions? If so, give some examples, and suggest how we can improve the situation.

http://airwars.org/

Pay attention to the facts behind the curtain.

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