Why Men Love War (1984) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#181

Post by bwb » Mon, May 07, 2018, 1:29 AM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #13

ISL wrote: post #2

This is a compelling long read. If the subject is of interest, the movie Restrepo and this talk from Sebastian Junger [1] may be of interest, too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn0zEBhvwXY

The book, "War," from Sebastian Junger is well worth a read. I read it before seeing "Restrepo" (which I also recommend). On Goodreads, I wrote this about Junger's book and his take on men and war after finishing it: "[T]he experience of warfare seems to strike a chord deep within the psyche of the men in combat. The bonding among men, the heroism, the swinging extremes of victory won only by the palpable threat of m…

One of my fav books, that story about him being in Germany with a friend and his son, and watching this young kid scream over the edge of a dropoff really hit something for me. There is something in us with that energy and we shouldn't ignore it.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#182

Post by bwb » Mon, May 07, 2018, 1:31 AM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #179

fapjacks wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For my arguing something so obvious, you sure seem to have missed what I said. You think my point would be stronger if I agreed with the parent instead of disagreed... Except that my point is that I do not agree with his post at all and it's obvious that he does not almost certainly understand the difference. Suggesting team sports as a "good substitute" for wartime experience plainly demonstrates a lack of understan…

I'm inclined to agree with you. I just want to add something I heard said by a retired NFL player in an interview. He said that when he was on the field playing football, he "knew he was alive, on planet Earth." I'm guessing he was talking about an immediate, all-consuming experience—a Zen kind of thing that he experienced, playing a physically tough and dangerous game at the world class level. I cannot believe that…

I've had moments with teams where everything is just connected and everything works, every person has latched onto something, we don't talk, the next pass goes perfectly and the next one. It is like being part of something bigger than yourself. Everyone is in the zone and all makes sense.

I've got no idea on the war thing, but it is something truly magical that I will treasure for the times it did happen.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#183

Post by fapjacks » Mon, May 07, 2018, 2:15 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #178

fapjacks wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military is a huge community of people in the United States -- about two million people -- and we can't talk in any other sense than the general one. But my experience directly contradicts your first assertion. Were you in the military? It would be useful to tell us about your experience. Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Nobody joins the infantry f…

> Because I would say most people join combat arms specifically for what's described in the article. Interesting, because the article strongly implies that it's strongly something you find on the battlefield, not go there for it. >I think you're still trying to put the Nazi SS concentration camp guard into a category of his own -- which is what most "normal" people want to do, to sort of implicitly deny that they cou…

Well, you take what you want from the article, but it does not in fact say (or imply, to me) that people don't join looking for this experience. People do go looking for this experience specifically. I'm telling you this is the case because it's one of the reasons I joined personally. My best friend joined for similar reasons -- incidentally, there is only one person I consider a close friend who was never in combat, and he spent time in prison (it's no coincidence the old Stoics have been popular among soldiers and prisoners). One of the main reasons I joined was specifically for the chance to experience combat, even though before 9/11, it wasn't a very big one. People have different names for this ("kill terrorists" and "kick some ass" are pretty common), but it's what pretty much everybody joins the infantry for.

Now, what people find when they get off the plane could be anything. It's hard to quantify this complex experience even with the many varied perspectives shared by people who were right there with you. So you're going to have to understand that while the article is broadly true, nobody has perfect insight into what this experience is all about, myself included (perhaps especially me). Nobody in history has ever known all there is to know about war, just as nobody in history has ever known all there is to know about love. It's no different here, even if he's exposed a universal truth of combat. Exposed the kind of open secret that war fulfills a basic male impulse.

Either way, you replied to a comment in a thread about the innate human capacity for war and the danger of people denying or not recognizing that capacity, so that's why I'm talking about it here.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#184

Post by stcredzero » Mon, May 07, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #112

ryanmarsh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bragged about killing. Nope. That’s how you know he didn’t see any shit.

This is one of those rules with essentially zero exceptions. Nobody that's telling the truth ever brags about that.

This is one of those rules with essentially zero exceptions. Nobody that's telling the truth ever brags about that.

There's another musician I know in that scene (but in a different part of the US) who was in Vietnam. No one could ever get him to talk about his combat experience. There was one time that we succeeded on steering him onto the topic, and we very soon changed the subject and stopped bringing it up. (He was also one of the nicest guys I ever met, unless he was being blunt about music. He also could play Santa Claus without a disguise!)

Do you think Timothy McVeigh ever fabricated enjoying killing? There are accounts from his fellow soldiers that he quite enjoyed shooting at enemies. My estimation, from life experience, is that there are definitely sociopaths and psychopaths out there. 99%+ of people aren't like that, but you will definitely meet them all the same.

We shouldn't simplify reality just to paint pretty pictures for ideological reasons. Life is messy and there is a nasty side to reality. Hopefully, we won't have to deal with it that often.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#185

Post by jacquesm » Mon, May 07, 2018, 11:36 PM UTC

supergirl wrote: post #175

theredking wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In way yes, it is not really about winning it is about being truly at the edge of your abilities mentally and physically though I understand your sentiment there is something innately human about war, about being on your limits, facing death and standing tall surely it is not beautiful and we can argue the ethics and motivations but it is a part of what makes us human.

I'm not saying it's about winning, I'm saying he will find it too painful to remember "being on his limits, facing death, etc." if he was in a real war where his side also suffered losses or he was injured, captured, etc. those painful memories would dominate his view

No need to look for the winners, just go ask the injured. Plenty of vets in the US came to their senses after getting injured chasing some foreign adventure under the guise of defense.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#186

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, May 09, 2018, 1:00 AM UTC

w_t_payne wrote: post #180

erikpukinskis wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “civilization” might be a better word for that.

I used 'humanity' to link to humanitarianism and the humanities. Civilisation has ... other connotations.

tame has the same connotations.

Anyway you’d have to say more than a one liner if you wanted to have a real conversation about what you meant.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#187

Post by erikpukinskis » Thu, May 10, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #145

erikpukinskis wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you’re arguing the obvious, something your OP almost certainly understands. Actually I think your point would be stronger if your agreed with them—that sports do substitute for war in important ways, and use your knowledge and experience to show specifically where and when that stops being true.

For my arguing something so obvious, you sure seem to have missed what I said. You think my point would be stronger if I agreed with the parent instead of disagreed... Except that my point is that I do not agree with his post at all and it's obvious that he does not almost certainly understand the difference. Suggesting team sports as a "good substitute" for wartime experience plainly demonstrates a lack of understan…

If you treat the people around you like idiots, they will be.

Re: Why Men Love War (1984)

#188

Post by w_t_payne » Fri, May 11, 2018, 12:52 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #186

w_t_payne wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used 'humanity' to link to humanitarianism and the humanities. Civilisation has ... other connotations.

tame has the same connotations. Anyway you’d have to say more than a one liner if you wanted to have a real conversation about what you meant.

True enough.