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E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

washingtonpost.com

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Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#181

Post by monocasa »

risotto_groupon wrote: post #168
jonathankoren wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m really confused on what a “counterfeit operating system” would be. The only thing I can think of is some Linux distro made to look like Windows.

the [28,000] disks had "labels nearly identical to the discs provided by Dell for its computers and had the Windows and Dell logos," the Times wrote. As a result, Lundgren pleaded guilty to two of 21 charges, conspiracy and copyright infringement. He told the paper, "If I had just written 'Eric's Restore Disc' on there, it would have been fine."

But, to be fair, they are byte for byte the same. It'd be one thing to use the trademarks on something that wasn't originally Microsoft's (or maybe had modified it).

But this isn't a ghost shift Louis Vuitton bag, it's literally exactly the same. Using Microsoft's trademark isn't misrepresenting the product.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#182

Post by cptskippy »

Dystopian wrote: post #158
cptskippy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Lundgren's restore disk work? Most restore disks I've used from OEMs have an OEM Key hardcoded on the disk so the user doesn't have to type in the license key on the side of their machine. These Restore Disks are permitted if the OEM is a Licensed Distributor, Lundgren was not a licensed distributor. The ISO files that Microsoft distributes require the user to input a key. His whole argument is questionable:…

> Microsoft's media creation tool is dead simple, you run it and tell it where to create the media. As long as you have a computer. Best answer for this is households who only have 1 functioning computer. Usually low-income households. One of my first jobs was working at a computer repair store. Customer would come in looking for a reformat and we'd give them a few options. - We'll restore (pay an hour or so of our t…

That's all true And he was not licensed to distribute Microsoft Software.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#184

Post by balls187 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #175
balls187 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law violation is akin to being ticketed for jaywalking across an empty road. The court ignored expert witness testimony that the disks were useless without a valid license and came up with a ludicrous amount. The defendants belief was that many customers weren't knowledgeable enough to download restore images from the internet. He was selling them to used computer shops so they could provide them to their custome…

> The court ignored expert witness testimony Do we know why? Courts don't throw out testimony for no reason. In any case, from what I understand the calculation of value principally factors into the fine. The jail time results from the defendant selling disks with others' logos on them.

It wasn't thrown out, the judge ignored it.

Another commentor dug up more detailed information, which intimated that the defendant wouldn't have made $80,000 worth of discs that had no value.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#185

Post by defen »

cptskippy wrote: post #160
NiceGuy_Ty wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just use a windows restore disk to get a new windows installation. When installed, it will ask you for your license key, and will not function fully until you have done so. The only thing this guy was doing was making it so customers don't have to download the iso on a USB or CD themselves, and recycling e-waste in the process.

> You can't just use a windows restore disk to get a new windows installation. When installed, it will ask you for your license key, and will not function fully until you have done so. The restore discs usually don't prompt for a key. It's either stored on a recovery partition on your disk, in the bios, or hardcoded in the disc media. It doesn't say how his disc worked but at a minimum he was still acting as an unlic…

I'm ok with saying that this guy violated Microsoft's copyright by redistributing Windows binaries, but the punishment seems egregious. 15 months in jail and a $50,000 fine? At most he should have been fined the $3,400 and given a suspended sentence.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#186

Post by Cookiesaurusbex »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #169
natch wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the whole crux of the story. The supposed law broken here (none, actually) is based on multiple judges being absolutely clueless about technology and refusing the regard the testimony of an expert witness who was trying to set the first judge straight.

> The supposed law broken here (none, actually) is based on multiple judges being absolutely clueless about technology The problem is we criminally charge commercial infringement. The defendant put others' logos on disks he sold. This shouldn't result in jail time, but that's what the law says. The problem isn't the court, it's the law.

> The problem isn't the court, it's the law.

>The judge said he disregarded Weadock’s testimony. “I don’t think anybody in that courtroom understood what a restore disk was,” Lundgren said.

Oh, I think there was a problem with the court.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#187

Post by freehunter »

cwyers wrote: post #171

Everybody is reading this wrong, which isn't a huge surprise because the Post seems to have nobody on hand who understands the facts of the case and relied on an interview with Lundgren heavily. He was not providing people with restore media they could use to fix their own machines. He was taking the restore media, burning it onto discs _with official Microsoft and Dell logos on them_ and then _selling them to comput…

I think it needs rephrasing. There's a lot that can be argued when you phrase it as "counterfeit restore discs", but it's open-and-shut trademark infringement. I know that's not what Microsoft was arguing, but in reality that's closer to what the judge ended up going with when you account for the reduced "cost" per disc.

Like he said in his defense, if he had labeled it "Eric's Restore Disc" instead of putting the Dell and Windows logo on it, he probably would have skirted any real repercussions.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#188

Post by JumpCrisscross »

balls187 wrote: post #184
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The court ignored expert witness testimony Do we know why? Courts don't throw out testimony for no reason. In any case, from what I understand the calculation of value principally factors into the fine. The jail time results from the defendant selling disks with others' logos on them.

It wasn't thrown out, the judge ignored it. Another commentor dug up more detailed information, which intimated that the defendant wouldn't have made $80,000 worth of discs that had no value.

> the defendant wouldn't have made $80,000 worth of discs that had no value

To be fair, arguing that someone you sold has no value is a bit hare-brained.

All that said, this is a side show. The criminal sentencing resulted, principally, from his using others' logos without permission on a product he sold. The combination of infringement and commerce is apparently something our laws are paranoid about.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#189

Post by freehunter »

belltaco wrote: post #107
snuxoll wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this is an area where copyright law is not up to date with regards to installation media for software with built-in DRM regimes. The value of Windows installation media is the cost of the disk it is burned to + the time it takes to burn unless there's an associated license (or a crack bundled that would let you bypass activation, which got laughably easy post-Windows 8 because of the new SLIC activation…

>The value of Windows installation media is the cost of the disk it is burned to + the time it takes to burn That's the cost, not the value. If value = cost, no one will ever make a profit.

In this case cost does actually equal value. There's zero inherent value to these discs without a license, so if you already have a license the value of the disc is the time it takes to burn it plus the cost of the disc. If you don't already have a license, the disc is worthless because it won't work without it.

Re: E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term

#190

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Cookiesaurusbex wrote: post #186
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The supposed law broken here (none, actually) is based on multiple judges being absolutely clueless about technology The problem is we criminally charge commercial infringement. The defendant put others' logos on disks he sold. This shouldn't result in jail time, but that's what the law says. The problem isn't the court, it's the law.

> The problem isn't the court, it's the law. >The judge said he disregarded Weadock’s testimony. “I don’t think anybody in that courtroom understood what a restore disk was,” Lundgren said. Oh, I think there was a problem with the court.

> The judge said he disregarded Weadock’s testimony

That testimony seems irrelevant to the charge which resulted in the jail time. Theoretically valueless or not, the discs were sold with an infringing logo. That combination--infringement and commercial intent--is a crime under our laws.

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