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Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

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Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#181

Post by walrus01 »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #94
gormz wrote: post #40

You can pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands. Might be true that on paper these things cause less accidents and less deaths, but I want to be in control of my life. If I die in a car I don't want it to be because of a software bug.

Most modern cars are drive-by-wire, entirely relying on computers and the software. And their software is huge blobs of proprietary compiled code. It's guaranteed to have bugs.

Very few modern cars actually decouple the steering wheel from the power steering mechanism fully, like a fly by wire jet airplane no longer has cable linkages from control stick to control surfaces.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#182

Post by DSingularity »

dancek wrote: post #165
lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

> It's not possible to engineer an autonomous system that never fails, but it is possible to engineer one in such a way that it never fails to detect that it has failed. This is a very good point: just like a human driver should slow down if they can't observe the road ahead well enough, an AI should slow down when it's not confident enough of its surroundings. This is probably very difficult to do, and I'm skeptical…

I feel that’s the problem. Techniques like SVM can provide reasonable definitions of confidence. Reinforcement Learning.. DNN... the mechanisms behind autonomous cars... are they able to do this??

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#183

Post by ams6110 »

jacquesm wrote: post #157
lisper wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane GPS is not accurate enough to reliably pinpoint your location to a particular lane. Even WAAS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System ) can have up to 25 feet of error. Basic GPS is less accurate than that. In fact, it's possible that GPS error was a contributing factor here but ther…

I drive a lot with my GPS (TomTom) on and it rarely gets the lane I'm in wrong, usually that only happens in construction zones. So even if the error can be large in practice it often works very well. It would be very interesting to see the input data streams these self driving systems rely on in case of errors, and in the case of accidents there might even be a legal reason to obtain them (for liability purposes).

Counterpoint, my Lenovo tablet running google maps often seems to get confused about lanes. E.g. it will think I'm taking an exit ramp when I am still on the main road. Once the ramp and the road diverge enough it will recover, but not before going into it's "rerouting" mode and sometimes even starting directions to get back on the road I'm already on.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#184

Post by danso »

jacquesm wrote: post #137
lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

> What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem.

That's what makes this example bizarre to me. I had thought that AutoPilot's ideal situation was having a moving vehicle in front of it. For example, AP does not have the ability to react to traffic lights, but can kind of hack it by following the pace of the vehicle ahead of it (assuming the vehicle doesn't run a red light):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXs4qZlDWbQ

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#185

Post by ataturk »

fma wrote: post #26
fairpx wrote: post #13

Autopilot tech in general should be open and shared among ccompanies and universities. The more brains we can put on this the better imho. If these things happen too often, Im afraid regulators will start making laws that prevent the use of this tech, which I believe has the potential to really make life better for all... one day.

I have always wondered why each company is developing their own software and algorithms... How will NTSB certify the software? Or will they? I mean, they certify car safety features now through crash tests, roll over tests, etc... Why is Tesla, or anyone manufacturer, allowed to modify vehicle safety features through OTA updates without recertification? I realize it adds more regulation...and I'm sure there can be a…

The modern collusion between private corporations and government is seriously unnerving, isn't it? It's like they brought out the worst in each other when they got together.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#186

Post by danso »

lisper wrote: post #166
jacquesm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive a lot with my GPS (TomTom) on and it rarely gets the lane I'm in wrong, usually that only happens in construction zones. So even if the error can be large in practice it often works very well. It would be very interesting to see the input data streams these self driving systems rely on in case of errors, and in the case of accidents there might even be a legal reason to obtain them (for liability purposes).

> it often works very well Well, yeah, it's not like autopilot is driving cars into barriers every day. But I don't think "often works very well" (and then it kills you) is good enough for most people. It's certainly not good enough for me.

According to the Reddit posterL

> Previous autopilot versions didn't do this. 10.4 and 12 do this 90% of the time. I didn't post it until I got .12 and it did it a few times in case it was a bug in 10.4.

> Also, start paying attention as you drive. Centering yourself in the lane is not always a good idea. You'll run into parked cars all over, and lots of times before there is an obstacle the lane gets wider. In general, my feel is that you're better off to hug one of the markings.

It kind of does sound like that autopilot is steering vehicles into barriers everyday, or it would be if drivers weren't being extra vigilant: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8a0jfh/autopil...

Seems like we need a study to assess whether the kind of protections AP offers outweighs the extra challenges it adds to a daily drive.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#187

Post by DisruptiveDave »

IAmEveryone wrote: post #141
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how will it make life better for all? I haven't given that question a lot of thought, and I haven't heard legit answers from others yet.

Living in a city where people park on the side of the road, I can't wait for autonomous cars to completely transform the urban space. Currently, there are two lanes of parked cars, plus two sidewalks and (usually) two lanes for traffic. Autonomous driving would allow cars to park themselves off-site, such as underground garages a block or two away. That alone could double the space available for pedestrians, or other…

All valid points, thanks

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#188

Post by jacquesm »

freerobby wrote: post #169
iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

I use Autopilot every day. I think it's amazing and borderline life-changing if you are like me and dread the monotony of a daily commute. I don't think most people realize just how mentally fatiguing the act of driving (constantly making all sorts of micro adjustments) is until they use Autopilot for a while and see the difference for themselves. I certainly didn't. I can now drive for many hours and feel just as al…

> I think it's amazing and borderline life-changing

That's a very unfortunate choice of words.

> I have taken over on demand hundreds if not thousands of times, and I've never had a close call that was Autopilot's fault.

Maybe you are an exceptional driver, to be able to be vigilant at all times even when AP is active.

Even so, it would probably only take one instance where you weren't in time to change your mind on all this (assuming you'd survive) so until then it is a very literal case of survivors bias.

Which makes me wonder how that person that died the other week felt about their autopilot right up to the fatal crash.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#189

Post by DisruptiveDave »

adrianN wrote: post #38
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how will it make life better for all? I haven't given that question a lot of thought, and I haven't heard legit answers from others yet.

Fewer dead people sounds good.

I don't know about that. Let's talk unemotionally about it. People die. Not all of them live until natural death. That's ok. That's how life works. There is plenty of good that comes from this. Is a goal of keeping every person alive until X# (90? 100?) a good one? I'm not sure it is. Simply saying "people dying is bad" isn't a very reasoned thought if you take away the assumption that everyone agrees with this.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#190

Post by DisruptiveDave »

maxerickson wrote: post #42
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: how will it make life better for all? I haven't given that question a lot of thought, and I haven't heard legit answers from others yet.

If autonomous systems reach the point where they are measurably safer than human drivers, there's an obvious benefit to using them. Again it's an if, but lots of people drive long distances and don't enjoy it. An autonomous vehicle would relieve them of the driving task. It would also add a transport option for people that are unable to drive long distances. It's likely to reduce the cost of taxi like services, as dr…

No, I'm with you here. Just thinking through the other side of some of these. Lost jobs. Not sure "safety" is a big enough issue here. On a larger scale, I'm significantly concerned that society (thru tech) is becoming increasingly optimized for comfort and safety. That bothers me. It removes so much of what is good about life. I don't want guaranteed life until 100. I don't want comfort all the time; that stunts growth. There is a lot of grey area here, of course. But this has been on my mind for a while now.
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