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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#181

Serious question for those who agree with this petition. Which country's military would you like to see be the most technologically advanced in 20 years?

Doesn't the fact that this is another step towards autonomous killing machines complicate your view of this? A lot of Silicon Valley's justification for its immoral actions rests on the _belief_ of the inevitability of outcomes. It's ok to monopolize and centralize everything, discarding the lives of people who are negatively impacted because it's inevitable. It's ok to make robots able to kill people better because…

The free world does have enemies! We must seek them out!

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#182

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

Well the project "uses artificial intelligence to interpret video imagery and could be used to improve the targeting of drone strikes."

That's a direct application of tech to killing people, not some abstract network or compiler tech. There's a big difference.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#183
post #135

Do we really want to test a theory that we can have a repeat of the 1930s when the democracies fell far behind an autocratic regime in the arms race, and again the autocratic regimes will not win? Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late. The military-industrial complex may have become far bigger and perhaps in some ways a burden, but the world is a dangerous place…

> Democracies are in retreat around the world

Nope. Not even in the slightest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Waves_of_democracy.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy#Waves_of_...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#184
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point but it also treats life as a zero sum game that's played in a steady-state arena where the threat of Tartars over the next hill is ever present. That's a good way to prevent progress and to defend yourself perfectly against the Last War but one would think the last 30 years of terrorism would have shown us the flaw in that. Put another way: who benefits from $Giant_New_Military_Platform like new f…

Please realize that all state militaries are coevolving together and competing in an on-going global tournament for dominance at all times whether there is an official war or not, that a weakness in one area will be weaponized by a competitor (e.g. our military weakness in preventing Russian disinformation leading to a political upset), that we must continually improve, enhance, and expand our capabilities just to ma…

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#185

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

It's perfectly possible to remember every technological invention the military has ever been involved in and still object to participation in military research.

Possible reasons, using Wernher von Braun's rocket development as an example:

- He, or somebody else, would have invented rockets anyway at some point

- That 'some point' would have been much earlier if the money spent on military (research & some of the rest) would instead have been put into rockets in the first place

- even if the two mechanisms abovc were not true: I'd probably be willing to forgo the benefits of the space age if it meant undoing WW2 and the Holocaust

- In most ethical frameworks except utilitarianism, it's strongly discourage to accept some evil for some perceived greater good. Meaning: Even if rockets have saved far more lives than WW2 vanquished, participating in the project is morally dubious at best

Specifically to Google's project:

- This seems to actually invert the usual idea of the military funding basic research that later gets adapted for civilian use. They are building on the fundamental research into AI already done by Google and others, and using it very specifically to kill people. Any advances useful for other purposes would seem to be even more coincidental than usual.

- While "minimising collateral damage" i. e. civilian casualties may seem to be a worthy cause, it cannot be ignored that such advances are likely to result in greater use of the technology. Drones are actually the best example of this effect. Just look at the Obama administration's willingness to expand the use of drone strikes, which was a direct result of the technology appearing to be the lesser evil compared to manned missions on the ground.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#186

> Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project That moment when you realize your mega-corp employer's "culture" is merely just another tool to get your to do their bidding. How do the share holders feel? I'm sure they're betting that almost every employee will stay no matter how their technology is used.

Indeed, they know few to none of these petitioners will quit. 3,000 petition signatures will do nothing. 3,000 resignations would, but Googlers aren't going to pass up on the high paychecks, three five-star meals a day, and massages in the office based on moral grounds. (In the same vein, Google's NetPAC has been quietly donating the max to Republicans like Paul Ryan and Steve Scalise, while most of their engineers o…

I know at least one Googler who really will quit if Google continues to contribute to drone warfare research.

Yes, they like the high paychecks, five-star meals and massages, but the market for ML and AI experts is very strong right now. The high paycheck can be matched elsewhere, and the benefits of not contributing to drone warfare research are worth spending a bit of that money on food and massages.

But as I said, I only know of one for sure. Whether or not there are enough to sway Google is yet to be seen.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are saying that military R&D is important no matter what they are involved in. This incredibly stupid reasoning can be used to justify the development viruses that can erradicate the human species. > DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research shouldn't be viewed as a necessarily bad thing. Let's be spesific: they are using current AI algorithms to track everyone's movements from airborn imagery.…

I'll take this over massive world wars. I'd rather have neither, but I'm realistic.

I hardly think that this kind of technology will be useful in stopping a world war.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#188
post #82

I heard an interesting view on this. Engineers build technologies like TensorFlow and demos of object recognition, which have obvious applications in drone combat (just stuff your model into the missile targeting system). Yet then when this tech is used for this purpose they're shocked, shocked -- and as long as they're not specifically building the missile targeting systems themselves they feel like their hands are…

It's nothing more than an attempt for Silicon Valley to pretend that they're a bastion of pure innovation, where all advancements are only for good. It's naive and extremely holier-than-thou.

Well, that's one extreme.

The other extreme is that some folks actually have a conscience.

Reality is probably on a continuum in between.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#189
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing the degree to which people are ignorant of what you've said here and imagine the US was motivated by ideology.

The US was motivated by ideology. Why was the US an ally of GB/France/etc and not Germany/Italy? Contrary to your belief, greed can be ideological -- striving for global free trade is an example of this.

Then why wasn't the US in the war from the beginning? Did it take 2 years to discover that Hitler was bad?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's useful to refer to a military without also including its leaders. The military that fought against Hitler and Stalin and Mao isn't the same military that invades countries and topples governments under false pretenses.

How so? Eisenhower finished the WW2, and then went on to topple the government of Iran and restore the Shah. Plus he gave bombers and napalm to help the French keep their colonies in Indochina.

True, I did not think of that. I we'd have to go even more granular and refer to specific engagements.
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