Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game • Hacker News Board

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#181

Post by codecamper » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

I hope this message reaches you over all the noise here.

GTX Corp. may be a corporation whose securities are traded publicly.

However, they ARE NOT legitimate.

They are pure scum on another level beyond what they are doing to you.

They have had their stock promoted. Pump & Dump.

Have a look over these articles on Seeking Alpha for more.

https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/GTXO/analysis-and-news

I'm not sure how I would go about handling these guys if they came after me for something. I don't think I would be so polite.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#182

Post by Veelox » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

mmihaly wrote: post #134

fragsworth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I actually remember playing your game when I was 17. I can't remember details about the virtual currency though. The '838 patent was filed in 2000 (which is the effective date, 2007 is just the processing date). Did Achaea have virtual currency before then? If so, that would help us a lot.

Yep, we started doing it in 1997 and have plenty of documentation to that effect.

I love seeing patent trolls taken down.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#183

Post by aagha » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

mmihaly wrote: post #134

fragsworth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I actually remember playing your game when I was 17. I can't remember details about the virtual currency though. The '838 patent was filed in 2000 (which is the effective date, 2007 is just the processing date). Did Achaea have virtual currency before then? If so, that would help us a lot.

Yep, we started doing it in 1997 and have plenty of documentation to that effect.

Wow. Did you file a patent?

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#184

Post by milesvp » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

roganartu wrote: post #99

gowld wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insurance firm isn't exploitative. The patent troll is actively harmfully attacking people. The insurance firm (assuming they aren't secretly creating demand for their product) is mitigating the damage. Locksmiths and firefighters aren't exploitative.

Insurance doesn't mitigate damage, it amortizes it (typically across a group of entities). The expected average annual claims on an insurer's policies need to be lower than the sum of the premiums or the insurer loses money. This is why people in high risk categories pay more for insurance (eg young people and people with high performance cars have higher car insurance premiums because statistically they crash more o…

Normally you'd be correct, but in this case troll insurance actually produces a game theoretic reduction in trolls. Going to court costs trolls resources, time if not money. By guaranteeing that all trolls will be fought tooth and nail, it makes trolling more costly, which makes it less attractive, which means there will be less of it.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#185

Post by tripzilch » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

ziikutv wrote: post #74

jlarocco wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The morality of both of them is subjective.

Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical

Edit I didn't read far enough ahead before replying and I see there is in fact a very interesting discussion about the ethics of F2P gaming, that this particular gaming company is actually having and welcoming that discussion and seems to be at least very interested in making the right calls about it. So I downvoted your comment, because it's a bit ridiculous that a comment simply stating "well you're wrong because it is objectively wrong" somehow got voted above people actually having a proper discussion about the topic oldcynic asked about. /Edit

No, there's no such thing as "objective morality". There just isn't, and that's by definition. Frankly I'm a bit sad that jlarocco actually got downvotes for that.

You meant to say something different, and what would have been more useful if you had been a little clearer on what you actually meant to say, instead of your claim that patent trolls are objectively immoral--which is factually untrue.

I'm going to guess (and I might be wrong because you weren't that clear) what you tried to say is that you consider the wrongness of patent trolls to weigh significantly more than the wrongness of facilitating addictiveness of f2p gaming and/or premium currencies. Except you didn't give any reason why, except stating that it is objectively so. So how was that for usefulness?

And neither oldcynic nor jlarocco stated that patent trolling is ethical (which is actually a loaded question).

There's actually all sorts of arguments you can bring to discuss about oldcynic's point. Such as by analogy of a heroin dealer complaining about the sad state of healthcare in the USA (and however you'd feel about that). Or, you know, how HN is a forum of entrepeneurs so topics like patent trolling goes closer to the hearts of some here, while the OP probably wouldn't dare to bring their sob-story to a support-forum for gaming addicts.

And that is called having a discussion. Not calling one side of the point "like, just your opinion man" (subjective) and the other not (objective).

I'd love to read such a discussion actually, because I'm a little torn on the topic as well. I'm not at all sure whether I should care about a gaming company making profits with in-game currency, while it's an open secret in this business that you can't really make it without actively exploiting the weakness and addictions in the human psyche (similarly to network security, not everyone is equally vulnerable, just because you won't fall for it doesn't mean the sweet rich old lady across the street knows how to install a firewall and not click on the whatsits).

On the other hand, we (on this forum) all (seem to) agree that patent trolling is a bad thing. Still doesn't mean it's objectively so.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#186

Post by jlarocco » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

ziikutv wrote: post #74

jlarocco wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The morality of both of them is subjective.

Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical

What I mean is there are people who claim that they don't see anything wrong with patent trolling. For those people, it's not a moral problem, it's just a side effect of the way IP law work.

At the same time, from a certain perspective, F2P games aren't much different than complicated video poker games. They're designed to encourage in game purchases, and to hook people so they keep playing.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#187

Post by stjohnswarts » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

mmihaly wrote: post #134

fragsworth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I actually remember playing your game when I was 17. I can't remember details about the virtual currency though. The '838 patent was filed in 2000 (which is the effective date, 2007 is just the processing date). Did Achaea have virtual currency before then? If so, that would help us a lot.

Yep, we started doing it in 1997 and have plenty of documentation to that effect.

You are the real MVP. Carry on.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#188

Post by dajt » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

Romanulus wrote: post #101

oldcynic wrote: post #55

Hard to decide how I feel here. I hate software patents and patent trolls, but I also hate what f2p and premium currencies have done to gaming. Which is the lesser of these evils?

Side with the free market here: If there are people willing to pay real monies for in-game currencies, then no problems. It's a voluntary transaction. The otherwise is not true.

I have 4 kids, two of which are at an age where they just throw ALL their money at these damned games. The other two will hit that stage soon enough.

In my mind these games are no better than poker/slot machines. Adults should be responsible for themselves but kids can't be held to the same standard. So just one more thing I have to police.

This system is a rotten, rotten idea.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#189

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 11:55 PM UTC

mmihaly wrote: post #137

ActsJuvenile wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the rest of the HN community, how do you fight patent trolls like these? How much does it cost ballpark to defend a product?

I don't really know the ins and outs of how. I've never been sued by patent trolls. I've been threatened, just responded with some of the evidence I have and a, "Are you sure you really want to do this?" and I never hear from them again. When I've helped defend other companies (two of which are among the largest/most prominent in the games industry), I've just provided expert witness testimony as to the existence of…

Sorry you got rate-limited in the comments here; it's a restriction that new accounts are subject to because of past abuses. I've marked your account legit so it won't happen again. Welcome to HN. We hope you'll stick around!

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#190

Post by danschumann » Sun, Mar 04, 2018, 12:30 AM UTC

OrganicMSG wrote: post #142

danschumann wrote: post #139

According to their flow, they collect user information after displaying a policy. My point is, if you re-arrange their flow chart, do you "invent around" the problem? (thereby negating their claim that you violate their patent(since their patent still relies on a specific process)?

Perhaps teach an expert system to automate selecting a flowchart on the fly for each user, that will accomplish a given set of requirements and also not be found in a search of the existing patent corpus. Don't forget to patent it though.

Oi, an AI that automatically generates patents? Sounds awful! It would just attempt to patent every current idea but in a different order.... oh man, please no.